59 <jgarnett> I have a question (while I wait for my checkout) - what do people think of that change of policy I mentioned in email? 1) devel on a branch 2) bug fix on trunk 3) when you merge in new capabilities you make a milestone release 4) PMC will release a dot release on a regular schedule
00 <jgarnett> Hi martin - we are trying to restore the build 
00 <jgarnett> Glad you could make it ...
00 <bnordgren> Simone, Martin, check out http://docs.geotools.org/browse/GEOTOOLS/Coverage+Support+Plans
00 <Martin_> Hello all
00 <bnordgren> (Jody) My stupid email has about a five hour delay. Ain't seen it yet.
00 <jgarnett> oh.
00 -->| andrewW (~chatzilla@dmgdba.esc.rl.ac.uk) has joined #geotools
00 <jgarnett> For all I know it has a poor subject line - it basically came up when geoserver was trying to figure out what was going on ...
01 <normanbarker> hi Andrew
01 <jgarnett> (There has been so much email it was probably missed)
01 <andrewW> Hi Norman, i made it 
01 <simone> hello martin...
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02 <bnordgren> hello martin
02 <simone> hello everybody
02 -->| appetkov (~appetkov@smoke-fire.us) has joined #geotools
02 <jgarnett> Just removing all traces of Java 5 from my windows box so I can be sure of a clean build...
02 <bnordgren> Excellent, Alex is here too. I'm going to drop out and walk over to his terminal.
02 |<-- bnordgren has left irc.eu.freenode.net ("Disconnecting")
03 <jgarnett> opps we lost him
03 <appetkov> he's here
03 <appetkov> and I 'm here too
03 <jgarnett> just a sec have to restart my IRC app
03 |<-- jgarnett has left irc.eu.freenode.net ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a Firefox 1.0.4/20050511")
04 <simone> does anybody tried the link bryce provided?
04 <appetkov> i did...
04 <simone> does it work for you?
04 <appetkov> http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Coverage+Support+Plans
04 <cresques> It doesn't work for me 
04 <simone> the same here
04 <rgould> I will perform a linux build on 1.4
05 <simone> this one works
05 <appetkov> cool
05 <appetkov> he suspected that he tytped it wrong...
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06 <normanbarker> what is the 3d processing?
06 <jgarnett> Hi again -
06 <jgarnett> what version of maven are people running?
06 <Martin_> 1.0.1
06 <appetkov> Projection of pictures onto the landscape.
06 <appetkov> Maven 1.0
06 <jgarnett> http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Dependencies
07 <jgarnett> lists 1.0.2 ...
07 <jgarnett> http://maven.apache.org/start/download.html
07 <jgarnett> also lists that as the most current ...
07 <cresques> Projection of pictures onto the landscape == image sading by means of a DEM ?
08 <appetkov> Does 1.0 not work? Worked for me yesterday.
08 <jgarnett> It is not really a question of work/not work - I am trying to figure out what is known to work. Basically I want to ensure that
08 <appetkov> Negative. Georeferencing of an unregistered high-oblique image (contains the horizon).
08 <jgarnett> someone can follow the focs..
09 <jgarnett> typo: focs = docs
09 <cresques> sounds great.
10 <jgarnett> Q: I am I in the middle of the great Martin / IRC meeting? Or is everyone trying to get the build going ...
10 <appetkov> I upgrade when things stop working. I followed the docs when I downloaded maven originally.
11 <appetkov> I'm here for IRC mtg.
11 <jgarnett> got it. I assume everyone is here to talk to Martin - cause he is wonderful
11 <appetkov> We think he's great.
11 <Martin_> I'm reading the Bryce's page right now (it sound like pretty good Bryce!)
11 <jgarnett> Cool. I may ask questions about the build ... but I will try and keep it down to a dull roar.
11 <jgarnett> Martin were you able to read the IRC about OSSIM getting involved?
12 <jgarnett> They sounded quite confortable with JAI, and interested in providing an implementation behind a GridCoverage.
12 <appetkov> It needs more work. Feel free to edit to put your own requirements in. (Just not everyone at once. Might break it.)
12 <Martin_> I have read the IRC, but didn't saw OSSIM. Maybe I read it too fast and need to read it again.
13 <Martin_> What is OSSIM?
13 <andrewW> Have just seen Bryce's page for first time...
14 <andrewW> Our reqts closely echo WRF, but need in general 4-d subsets from 4-d: ...BBOX=-180,-90,179,90,0,1000&CRS=some3dCRS&TIME=1996/2005/1...
14 <appetkov> There is certainly an inherent need to be able to select a subset out of an nD box.
15 <simone> Ossim is basically a very powerful raster library
15 <andrewW> WCS supports up to 5-d (if you include PARAMETER=...)
15 <simone> with the ability to read various formats
15 <simone> and to do 3d
15 <appetkov> Let's start off organized like. Simone & Alessio have just done a bunch of work along these lines (including grib support). Can you two brief us in?
16 <simone> ok
16 <simone> alessio is not around
16 <jgarnett> (For Martin: http://www.ossim.org/tiki-index.php )
16 <simone> let me just call him on the phone
16 <simone> otherwise I will brief everything myself
17 <simone> just a sec...
17 <jgarnett> While we wait - martin OSSIM is a C++ library that has lots of raster support. They have some generated Java bindings, and would like to start playing with the geotools crowd.
17 <--| Jesse_Eichar has left #geotools
17 <normanbarker> are the java bindings for ossim available?
17 <jgarnett> This represents a significant outreach effort so I would like to make them feel welcome when they show up (in about 3 weeks due to a release).
18 <jgarnett> Apparently they "are", but they lost them during a website move. They promiss to have them again as part of their release.
18 <normanbarker> also, I thought ossim used gdal as a driver, and that is restricted to 2D and bands
18 <jgarnett> They did sound like they knew of JAI, and were quite happy to hear about GridCoverage.
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18 <Martin_> If we are getting more help for external contributors, it give me the feeling that switching to ISO 19123 interfaces is becoming more and more urgent...
19 <jgarnett> It very well might. My impression is there strength is setting up chains of processing.
19 <jgarnett> If the end of a chain was a GridCoverage it would work nicely with geotools...
19 <simone> alessio is not answering
19 <appetkov> Amen. One of the things we want to do is minimize the amount of re-writing we have to do when we adopt a new gridcoverage scheme.
19 <jgarnett> I am sorry I don't know more Martin.
20 <simone> we can proceed as you'd like.
20 <Martin_> Thanks for the information Jody.
20 <--| Jesse_Eichar has left #geotools
20 <appetkov> Go ahead, Simone
21 <simone> Ok
21 <simone> small brief
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21 <simone> I have been playing with geotools since oct 2004
22 <simone> and geoserver as well
22 <simone> because we had been asked to build a prototype for a complete server
22 <simone> wcs+wms+wfs+(possibly)catalog
22 <simone> we evalutaed various products
23 <simone> but we ended up with GeoTools+Geoserver
23 <simone> Alessio worked on the Server part
23 <simone> he studied GeoServer for a couple of weeks in january
23 <simone> in order to leverage the preexisting structure
23 <simone> to build a skeleton for a WCS
24 <simone> initially the goal was to stay on 2D
24 <simone> and support
24 <simone> georeferenced images
24 <simone> geotiff
24 <simone> grib files
24 <simone> usgs dem
24 <simone> but also Ascii grids came for free
24 <simone> since it was just a matter of porting the legacy code
25 <simone> The skeleton alessio built
25 <simone> integrates perfectly with Geoserver
25 <simone> the preexisting one
25 <simone> that was one of the goal
26 <simone> since we had only three months to have a decent prototype
26 <simone> Since I had more experience with geotools
26 <simone> I worked on the GridCoverage support from GeoTools
26 <simone> I had no experience with JAi at the beginning
26 <simone> and the GridCoverages were under port
26 <simone> therefore
27 <simone> as I said before
27 <simone> the support we set up
27 <simone> was an initial prototype
27 <simone> but it worked pretty fine
27 <simone> I jhave been playing with it for a month in a NATO exercise during may
27 <simone> and we had no problems
27 <simone> the point now
27 <simone> is
28 <simone> ok
28 <simone> we know that we need more
28 <simone> we know that we can do more
28 <simone> we learnt how we could do more
28 <simone> let's try to do more !
28 <simone> Just a note
28 <simone> WMS raster support
28 <simone> that is something
28 <simone> that was not planned to be done
29 <simone> but thanks to a bright alessio intuition
29 <simone> we quickly hacked it
29 <simone> and it worked fine
29 <simone> for source that were not too big
29 <simone> (in size)
29 <simone> the point now is to enhance that support
30 <simone> using tiling, pyramids, and raster symbolizer
30 <simone> As far as we are concerned with WCS
30 <simone> the goal is to go to more than 2 dimension
31 <simone> ( I have been thinking about for months and I have some ideas about it...)
31 <simone> but support also
31 <simone> 3 and 4
31 <simone> plus the band selection
31 <simone> which basically means
31 <Martin_> (note: band selection should be on trunk now)
31 <simone> 5th dimension = parameter
32 <simone> (yeah... we saw that... thanks Martin!)
32 <simone> I think that as brief it was long enough!
32 <cresques> band it's a parameter on WCS, isn't it?
32 <simone> yeah
32 <simone> in the GridCoverage spec
32 <simone> dimensions are 4
33 <simone> x,y,z,t
33 <simone> but you also have bands
33 <simone> which can be pretty anything
33 <cresques> and parameters has no limit on number, in specs, I think
33 <simone> like for example in multipsectral images
33 <appetkov> Simone: tomorrow morning, can you repeat that summary on that web page?
34 <andrewW> Simone,I think there will be a big userbase for x,y,z,t+ parameter
34 <simone> I can make a better one
34 <appetkov> Yes, I think there's a big user base too.
34 <simone> there is a sensor Hyperion we are thinking about using which can retrievew more 100 bands....
34 <appetkov> Simone, where is the stuff you've already written (grib, etc.) ?
35 <simone> grib right now
35 <cresques> (sorry to disturb) did you take a look to http://hypnos.cbs.umn.edu/wcs/demo.html ?
35 <simone> is on my pc!
35 <normanbarker> is this going to link into GALEON
35 <appetkov> can we collect your work into a branch, so we can all look at it?
36 <appetkov> That will help us try to move forward, I think...
36 <simone> well
36 <simone> we can talk about it
36 <simone> after that exercise we had on june
36 <simone> we started thinking abut how to improve everything
36 <simone> therefore we are working on it daily
37 <simone> but not committing anything
37 <simone> since it is unstable
37 <simone> we are playing with various things
37 <simone> pyramids
37 <simone> tiling
37 <simone> JAI integration
37 <simone> I think after the meeting
37 <andrewW> Do you stack GRIB records vertically for 3-spatial-d?
37 <simone> we can start talking about how to reuse what we did
37 <appetkov> Branches can be unstable. I think the main value is to start other people thinking along the same lines as you..
38 <simone> I started working on that
38 <simone> using martin's classes
38 <simone> CoverageStack
38 <simone> in order to handle
38 <simone> 5d grib files
39 <simone> so, what about the agenda for this meeting?
39 <jgarnett> That is a fun demo - thanks
39 <appetkov> Well, we covered your intro. My intro was on the web page. Who else is here?
39 <normanbarker> isn't the demo MapServer?
40 <simone> it is
40 <simone> martin, bryce...
40 <appetkov> Martin?
40 <Martin_> Not in any particular order, we may talk a bit about plan for ISO 19123, and plan for IIOMetadataFormat (if we decide that it is a path to follow)
41 <simone> We could start with the issue ISO 19123
41 <Martin_> The good new is that I believe that it will not break a lot of compatibility.
41 <appetkov> ding ding ding. I'd add discussing a strategy for specifying multi-d datasets.
42 <Martin_> (sure)
42 <appetkov> ISO 19123
42 <Martin_> The only problem right now is to find the time to finish interface creation in GeoAPI.
42 <Martin_> There is at least 2 (or 3) steps to follow:
42 <Martin_> - Commit all interfaces in the pending directory
42 <Martin_> (looking for URL...)
43 <Martin_> (sourceforge CVS is down right now...)
43 <Martin_> I would said that about 30-40% of ISO interfaces are done right now.
44 <Martin_> Any help for finishing them is welcome, as usual
44 <simone> I agree
44 <Martin_> Once all interfaces are done, the next step is to merge them with Stephane Fellah's proposal.
44 <appetkov> Does 19123 specify a method for nD datasets or is that external to the spec?
45 <appetkov> for selecting slices out of nD datasets, I meant
45 <cresques> is 19123 available for reading?
45 <simone> Yeah
45 <simone> iso 19123
45 <Martin_> If "D" is spatio-temporal or spectral dimension, I believe that ISO is general enough. For selecting slices, I'm not sure. But ISO 19123 interfaces are generally more powerfull than OGC's one.
46 <simone> does take into account spatio temporal coverages
46 <simone> agree
46 <andrewW> 19123 unfortuinately has fundamental limittion to regularly spaced grids (but agree its a good sart)
47 <jgarnett> As long as the "standard" can be represented as a subset of your agreeded interface you should be good.
47 <Martin_> About availability for reading. ISO 19123 is a very particular case. This ISO specification is not yet published in the list of OGC abstract specification (like ISO 19111), but everyone at OGC use.
47 <andrewW> Martin: STephane Fellah's proposal?
48 <jgarnett> Martin you and I have "access" to that spec. Can we make interfaces that are good enough for others to code against?
48 <cresques> andrewW: you mean coverage suport shoud include TINs ?
48 <Martin_> Furthermore, ISO 19123 is at least partially in some derived form (XML) there: http://www.isotc211.org/HMMG/Model2005-03-17/
48 <andrewW> No, just not a grid defined by offset vectors.
49 <andrewW> eg lat-lon, but increased resolution over (e.g.) UK
50 <Martin_> I believe that wWe can make interface from ISO 19123, since we are allowed to uses http://www.isotc211.org/HMMG/Model2005-03-17/ and the later is derived from ISO 19123 (and other ISO specificatiions).
51 <Martin_> Continuing: Stephane Fellah was the editor of the legacy OGC GridCoverage specification. He published in GeoAPI pending directory his own set of interfaces derived from ISO 19123, and modified for better WCS supports.
51 <andrewW> https://www.seegrid.csiro.au/twiki/pub/Xmml/XmmlCoverage/19123_DIS2003.pdf
51 <Martin_> Thanks Andrew! I was not aware of this link.
52 <cresques> thanx too!
53 <andrewW> It's Rob Atkinson et al at SEEGrid - has he been involve in this coverage/wcs/geoserver discussion?
53 <Martin_> Stephane Fellah's interfaces can'n be adopted as is, because there is some work needed (javadoc, annotations, etc.). However, once we have finished a "clean" set of interfaces derived from ISO 19123 as directly as we can, we should take in account Stephane Fellah changes. He have a lot of experience with GridCoverage (he worked at PCI geomatic).
54 <appetkov> What about persistence? Does it replace GCE too or is that an open issue?
55 <Martin_> I didn't saw anything about GCE in ISO 19123 (but I have not finished reading it).
55 <Martin_> And GCE in OGC GridCoverage is insuffisient.
55 <simone> I read it all, even if quickly
55 <simone> and there was nothing about gce
56 <simone> that is my main concern about ISO 19123
56 <appetkov> So we may have another issue to tackle in addition to the internal represenatation of grids...
56 <Martin_> My feeling is that on the particular case of GCE, we should forget about GeoAPI interfaces for now, do our own in Geotools only, and maybe put the interfaces back in GeoAPI when we feel they are good enough.
57 <simone> I agree
57 <cresques> sorry for my ignorance ... GCE is what?
57 <simone> gce is somehow poor for 2d (since GridCoverages from OGC are essentially 2D)
57 <Martin_> GridCoverageExchange: the part that read and write images.
58 <simone> but is quite useless for ND (N>2)
58 <simone> to work with 3d, 4d...
58 <simone> we need something else, I think....
58 <appetkov> I think the multidimensional problem spans several areas: internal representation, persistence, etc.
59 <appetkov> We're going to have to bring the internal representation and the persistance mechanisms online at the same time, I fear.
00 <Martin_> Once we feel that ISO 19123 interfaces are good enough, we can implement them as an experiment in Geotools. If it work, we can proposes them to OGC adoptions. They will need to be voted at some OGC meeting (there is 4 meeting by years).
00 <normanbarker> I quite the like the idea of ingesting into PostGIS, e.g. http://caro-coops.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=178
00 <cresques> by persistence on this topic, what do you means exactly?
00 <simone> reading writing multidimensional coverages
01 <cresques> tx
01 <appetkov> Storage of a grid into a file (or server or something.)
01 <appetkov> The interface should be format independent.
01 <appetkov> sorry
01 <andrewW> 19123 is OK for n-D in my reading
01 <simone> actually I did some experiments with using Postgis for persistence
02 <cresques> simone: tiling your data?
02 <simone> what do you mean?
02 <simone> let me rephrase
03 <simone> how tiling comes into account now?
03 <cresques> caus of my experience, sorry
04 <Martin_> I don't know for postgis. For 2D images in files, it should be handled by JAI.
04 <normanbarker> for postgis, I was referring to N-D
05 <cresques> at gvSIG project we've bing working for a while with raster support
06 <cresques> we read with JAI, jmrsid, jecw and jgdal. I've foud JAI far to slow to be used for big amount of data
06 <Martin_> On GridCoverageExchange topic. Do we agree about using GeoAPI interfaces as a target of opportunity, but to not try to hard if it is inconvenient? Until we come with better proposal.
07 <Martin_> Which JAI instruction do you use for reading image?
07 <Martin_> And how much memory do you allocate to yours tile cache?
07 <cresques> wait, I'll check
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08 <appetkov> Running notes at: http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Kickoff+Mtg+Notes
08 <appetkov> Squawk on error.
08 <cresques> basically we open straight tiffs with no tiling/overlaing, that about 100 Mb each
09 <cresques> JAI was really slow, and loaded full image to memory
09 <simone> quick not
09 <simone> to use tile cache
09 <simone> you need to tile image on disk
09 <simone> otherwise
09 <cresques> after jgdal writing, same image was really usable
09 <simone> you will load it all as a whole single tile
10 <simone> i have been playing with 400 mb tiff from quickbird
10 <simone> tiling them on fisk
10 <simone> adding overviews
10 <simone> and then displaying them
10 <cresques> but was not our target, to change image formats. We wanted better speed without touching data. It was a client side approache
10 <simone> the result was astonishing
10 <Martin_> Additionnaly, the default JAI's tile cache is only about 16 Mb if my memory serve me right. You may need to increases it (JAI.getDefaultInstance().getTileCache().setMemory(...) or something like that).
10 <cresques> I work with this size QB images, without tiling
11 <simone> (yeah, 16 mb )
11 <cresques> initial load takes about 20 seconds (400x200 px). zoom in are quicker
11 <simone> (and enable tile recycling...=
12 <andrewW_> To be competitive with legacy DODS, WCS should handle up to O(100MB) for data exchange
13 <simone> I know...
13 <simone> I am working on that relly hard....
13 <appetkov> So, JAI gurus, is there any way to load an untiled tiff (like cresques') faster, without first loading it in and re-writing it as a tiled image?
13 <simone> the only way to avid loading it all in memory
13 <simone> is to use decimation on reading
13 <Martin_> Can we talk about JAI tips on mailing list and come back to a plan for GridCoverage evolution?
13 <simone> sure
13 <simone> sorry
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14 <cresques> I think main problem on Jai it's tiff reader strategy
14 <Martin_> (They are very valuable tips Simone; it would be nice to put them in a wiki page)
14 <simone> when I will have time
14 <simone> I will do that
14 <Martin_> ISO 19123: Do we have any volunter for helping to finish interfaces?
15 <cresques> as it loads on memory before anything, wen you may starts to work you've 100 Mb less of RAM, and 10 seconds later
15 <appetkov> My time is going to free up in the fall, unfortunately, we're cranking on a project right now.
16 <cresques> as gdal reads only what you specify (it's remote sensing oriented) is far more efficient
16 <cresques> sorry
16 <Martin_> Okay. So I think we may have ISO 19123 completed around September (sooner if we find volunter).
16 <appetkov> Simone, what is your availability in the short and long term?
17 <simone> well
17 =-= appetkov is now known as bnordgren
17 <Martin_> (correction: just realizing that we are almost in August: I will target october for ISO 19123 interfaces).
17 <Martin_> Second topic: GridCoverageExchange. Who is working on it?
18 <simone> my time is pretty bounded from what they ask me to do at the center
18 <Martin_> I did a little bit of work, Simone did some. Bryce did some I believe?
18 <simone> but I think I could give some of time on this
19 <Martin_> Nice! Please just send me an email when you feel ready to do some work on ISO 19123 interfaces.
19 <jgarnett> I worked on it - I think that it is a good high level service (but we should throw it away and have something easier/more direct)
20 <bnordgren> I implemented a reader, but I'm not working GCE per say.
20 <bnordgren> Jody says not to keep it alive on his account.
20 <bnordgren> Oh. Hi jody.
20 <bnordgren> That's the problem with looking at the keys when typing.
21 <jgarnett> Now the GCE implementations that are there:
21 <bnordgren> So: What are the parameters of a New, Improved GCE?
21 <jgarnett> 1) WMS
21 <jgarnett> 2) File
21 <jgarnett> The File one processes a SDI meta-inf thing to find the available formats.
22 <jgarnett> The WMS was really a hard-core expercise in understanding parameter
22 <jgarnett> Well it is missing something right now.
22 <jgarnett> "Discovery"
22 <jgarnett> there is no way to tell what is "in" a GCE.
23 |<-- andrewW has left irc.eu.freenode.net (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23 <jgarnett> So I would see if you can just do something similar to DataStoreFactory / DataStore ... we got some interfaces in uDig that you can have if you want.
23 <jgarnett> But all of this is 2nd place to agreeing on a GridCoverage interface (which I think you guys already covered)
24 <Jesse_Eichar> There is a stream implementation too.
24 <Jesse_Eichar> reads and writes to and from arbitrary streams.
24 <Martin_> The final GridCoverage interfaces is pending ISO 19123 interfaces, but I believe that it will be compatible with current interfaces for the most important methods.
25 <bnordgren> Ok, New GCE needs to retain ability to persist to: stream, WMS, and files.
25 <bnordgren> Needs nD functionality.
25 <bnordgren> Needs plugin framework.
26 <Martin_> I would like to process steps by steps: 1) Get a Steam-only GCE working for n-D coverages, 2) Add a WMS version, 3) Add discovery (this one may be pending a catalog service), if possible as a DataStore
26 <Martin_> Does this plan make sense?
26 <jgarnett> How about reading? If you don't have to read from a stream it becomes easier to do a lot of the tricks like mmaps.
26 <andrewW_> Agree - we need file read
26 <bnordgren> I like stepwise implementation. We just gotta keep the big picture in mind from the start.
27 <cresques> and to DB (is not a stream, or is it ?)
27 <jgarnett> That was the questions: streaming file read or tiled file read? Or both as needed ...
27 <Martin_> I was including File read in Stream read, since they are almost the same from javax.imageio.ImageReader user point of view.
27 <jgarnett> I like stepwise too
27 <andrewW_> ok
27 <simone> the same here
27 <jgarnett> good point cresques - not sure.
28 <cresques> I think tiled shoud be transparent
28 <Martin_> Lets focus on Stream/File first, and see DB after.
28 <Martin_> Tiling should be transparent, yes.
28 <normanbarker> I can see requesting on parameters (big picture) in the WCS to be more difficult without a DB
29 <Martin_> So lets do DB after File/Stream and before WCS, as step 1.5)
30 <Martin_> For a grid coverage reader implementation, I would like to process in the way suggested by Bryce (IIOMetadataFormat).
30 <Martin_> Rational:
30 <jgarnett> I would also point out that you can leave WMS out of it - WMS, WCS etc can be their own client as is happening with WMS and WFS now.
30 <Martin_> GridCoverage2D is basically a wrapper around java.awt.image.RenderedImage, adding supports for geographic metadata like CRS.
31 <jgarnett> The client implementation of WCS can simply use the streaming Reader/Writer ...
31 <Martin_> Thanks; so we can set WCS support as a "target of opportunity".
31 <bnordgren> Updated notes http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Kickoff+Mtg+Notes
32 <bnordgren> Should I remove WMS?
32 <jgarnett> I think you should use a plugin/WCS as a common platform to make sure that your implementation is capable.
32 <jgarnett> I would think so bnorgren.
32 <Martin_> continuing: like GridCoverage is a wrapper around java.awt.image.RenderedImage, GridCoverageExchange can be basically a wrapper around javax.imageio.ImageReader in the 2D case.
32 <jgarnett> You can just change the implementations to use your readers as a "sanity check" that we are on the right path.
33 <bnordgren> This IIOMetadata format thing is Yet Another Area where we need to be able to communicate nD concepts.
34 <Martin_> We may not need to write a GridCoverageFormat for each format. A more general approach may be to agree on a way to transfert metadata (CRS, envelope) from ImageReader to GridCoverageExchange, and IIOMetadata may be used for that.
34 <bnordgren> J2Se is 2D + bands. We need to be able to specify which slice to take out of a 4D hypercube and have our IIO plugin produce the correct image.
34 <Martin_> I believe that IIOMetadata is general enough. We basically can put whatever we want there.
35 <simone> about this
35 <simone> I am trying to do something like that with GribFiles
35 <bnordgren> Is IIOMetadata bidirectional? Or is it plugin -> client only?
35 <simone> I am adapting my grib library to work under ImageIO readers
36 <simone> as an experiment on how to leverage this approach....
36 <bnordgren> I like IIOMetadataFormat for reporting from the plugin to the app, and would suggest the OGC's 05-027r1 for that. (Image CRS using GML)
36 <Martin_> IIOMetadata would need to be kind of bidirectional ImageReader --> GridCoverageExchange --> ImageWriter.
36 <simone> it is that way
37 <simone> IIoimage
37 <simone> wrap
37 <simone> image+iiometadata
37 <simone> ImageWriter
37 <simone> uses IIomage
37 <bnordgren> But can we use it bidirectionally with the reader? (e.g., The app needs to specify the Time and Height to get the correct slice of data from the IIO plugin.)
37 <cresques> supports ImageWriter floats or doubles?
38 <cresques> (so ImageReader)
38 <simone> that is the way
38 <simone> I wrote the Geotiff writer
38 <simone> i build a IIometadata object from crs and envelope
38 <simone> than i wrap
39 <simone> renderedimage+iiometadata
39 <simone> and write does the trick
39 <Martin_> In order specify the Time and Height to get the correct slice of data from the IIO plugin: I think it is ImageReadParam's job rather than IIOMetadata's job.
39 <simone> imagereader should support float
40 <simone> and also double
40 <simone> i should check though
40 <Martin_> Simone: looks like a good aproach. What I would like to do is to put the IIOMetadata part in a common package for all plugins.
40 <simone> well
40 <Martin_> I mean, we probably need at least a common IIOMetadataFormat.
40 <simone> the approach should be
40 <simone> 1>read a file format or a stream
40 <simone> 2>check the metadata
40 <simone> then select the right image by index
40 <bnordgren> Are we looking at making a standard set of ImageReadParams which we would expect nD aware plugins to supports?
41 <simone> there are two kind of metadata
41 <simone> stream metadata
41 <Martin_> I suggest that a standard set of ImageReadParams should be planned for Geotools.
41 <bnordgren> Martin, Simone: I like the idea of a common definition of CRS IIOMetadataFormat.
41 <simone> one for each file or stream
42 <simone> and iiometadata
42 <bnordgren> Also a standard set of ImageReadParams.
42 <simone> one for each image (or slice as you like)
42 <simone> imagereadparams control, 2d subsetting, decimation, offsetting and tiling..
42 <bnordgren> Part of the common package could be the ability to construct a CRS from the IIOMetadata regardless of which plugin it came from.
43 <simone> for each slice-image
43 <Martin_> Bryce, agree.
43 <simone> me too
44 <bnordgren> typing in notes now....
44 <Martin_> Simone, can you extracts the part of yours IIOMetadata work that are general enough (not specific to Geotiff) and put this generic part in the org.geotools.coverage.io package?
44 <Martin_> (do we agree about a org.geotools.coverage.io package for such common parts?)
45 <bnordgren> notes updated
45 <simone> in JAI
45 <simone> there is GEOTiffMetadata
45 <bnordgren> Martin Sure, that sounds like a good package.
46 <jgarnett> (Aside: almost have the build back again)
46 <bnordgren> Simone: that's the native metadata for GeoTIFF. we're going to want a format-neutral version.
46 <bnordgren> (Yea Jody)
46 <simone> yeah
46 <simone> I wanted to use that as a base
47 <simone> I am missing something, sorry
47 <Martin_> Having GEOTiffMetadata doesn't prevent having a neutral version too. Thankfully, javax.imageio supports more than one IIOMetadataFormat.
47 <simone> this IIometadata
47 <simone> in the case of a ND (N>2)
47 <simone> coverage
47 <simone> stored, let's say, in a file
47 <simone> would relate to the overall file
48 <simone> or there would be an instance of these metadata for each 2D slice of it?
48 <simone> this
49 <bnordgren> I think J2SE allows for metadata associate
49 <Martin_> If we take in account that two kind of IIOMetadata exists in ImageReader ("stream" and "image), I guess that stream IIOMetadata would be for the ND case, and each image IIOMetadata would be for a particular 2D slice.
49 <CIA-10> 03jgarnett * r14969 10geotools/gt/plugin/wfs/test/org/geotools/data/wfs/ (GeoServerTest.java WFSDataStoreReadTest.java): Patch to WFSDataStoreReadTest to allow testing against optional testing against localhost
49 <simone> that is what I wanted to hear
50 <bnordgren> with both file and image.
50 <simone> we need to take into account this from the beginning
50 <bnordgren> yes
50 <simone> stream metadata <---> whole dataset (2d,3d,4d,5d)
50 <simone> iiometadata <----> 2d slice
50 <simone> that would general
51 <simone> be
51 <simone> it is the way ImageIO works by the way
52 <Martin_> So, do we have a volunter for putting some generic IIOMetadata skeleton in org.geotools.coverage.io?
53 <bnordgren> I think right now, we're still identifying needs.
53 <Martin_> Right.
53 <Martin_> An other need is for an ImageReadParam with parameters like time.
53 <bnordgren> I mentioned this to Simone, but my intent is to outline work throughout the winter into next spring.
54 <simone> and z-level
54 <Martin_> Good plan Bryce. Thanks for doing that
54 <bnordgren> Yupper. refresh the notes page.
55 <Martin_> IIOMetadataFormat: need to contains CRS, Envelope, formulas for translating pixel integer values to "real world' (or geophysics) value. Something else?
56 <bnordgren> Any thots on OGC 05-027r1 fro IIOMetadata format?
56 <bnordgren> IIOMetadata is a DOM structure, right?
56 <simone> yeah
56 <Martin_> Yes.
56 <simone> whic spec is that one, you ask too much to my memory!
57 <bnordgren> That's a recommendation paper for Image related CRS transport in GML3.1.1
57 <Martin_> OGC 05-027r1 (Imave CRS in GML) may a good candidate; I would need to read it.
57 <bnordgren> Should lend itself pretty well to a DOM formulation.
57 <Martin_> However...
58 <Martin_> My understanding of Image CRS is that it is a kind of CRS before georectification (I means a CRS for raw image, oblique, with horizon on it, etc.).
59 <Martin_> After a rectification, the CRS attached to an Image may not be an ImageCRS, but rather a "normal" CRS like GeographicCRS.
59 <Martin_> So OGC 05-027r1 is certainly an important specification, but maybe only a part of what we need.
59 <simone> a look at gml in Jpeg2k?
00 <simone> it has been on my desk for months now...
00 <Martin_> An other candidate is "GML in JPEG2000" specification. However, this one is probably too much complex for our need. I suggest that we retains only a subset of "GML in JPEG 2000".
00 <bnordgren> My read was that it was capable of representing post-rectification CRS too.
00 <cresques> metadata of a rectified image should contain CRS of the original one?
00 <bnordgren> I'll have to look again.
00 <simone> agree
01 <bnordgren> I gotta split. (Wife's coming.) Who's going to take notes from here on out?
01 <Martin_> I will take some.
02 <Martin_> (just tell me when you have commited yours last notes to the wiki page)
02 <bnordgren> All right, good start! I'll read 'em tomorrow.
03 <bnordgren> (I'm not editing)
03 <bnordgren> later, guys...
03 |<-- bnordgren has left irc.eu.freenode.net ("ircII EPIC5-0.0.5 – Are we there yet?")
03 <andrewW_> Nice to meet everyone, also have to leave. Will stay tuned, this (n-D WCS on netCDF/GRIB/...) is very important for us..
04 <cresques> didn't had a problem on the future, if we don't try to think too on streams and DN r/w before to start designing?
04 <jgarnett> (aside: The last commit has trunk working for windows & Java 1.4, I will wait for the results of a linux build before sending out the all clear email)
04 <--| andrewW_ has left #geotools
04 <Martin_> Thanks for fixing the build Jody.
05 <jgarnett> Well do need that linux and Java 5 test
05 <jgarnett> (if anyone has either of those env)
05 <jgarnett> And I am going to get in "trouble" with dzwiers for commiting the fix without permission.
07 <Martin_> So we talked about IIOMetadata and ImageReadParam. For IIOMetadata, the requirements are CRS, Envelope, sampleToGeophysics informations. For ImareReadParam, requirements are time and z-values. Any other requirements to write down?
09 <CIA-10> 03jgarnett * r14970 10geotools/gt/demo/referencing/src/org/geotools/demo/referencing/TransformData.java: is this how we want to use @version
09 <simone> I have a doubt
09 <simone> (sorry to bother)
10 <normanbarker> just thought about model time and forecast time for data
11 <simone> so far with this structure what we have been talking about was how to get 2d slices, that is grid coverages
11 <jgarnett> That was a good meeting ...
11 <simone> am I right
12 <simone> ?
12 <Martin_> Yes, it was basically about 2D slices. ND is not excluded however, but the path may be different.
13 <Martin_> I means, IIOMetadata is very likely to be pertinent for 2D. It may be pertinent for ND too, but maybe not as strongly.
13 <jgarnett> (someone is posting the logs from todays meeting?)
13 <Martin_> A ND GridCoverage reader may not be backed by javax.imageio.ImageReader.
13 <simone> basically the readers we are talking about
13 <Martin_> I will post the log.
13 <simone> are able to read 2D slices
14 <normanbarker> can we quickly discuss the N-D approach
14 <simone> but some other entity (Discovery? Catalog) will take into account ND by selecting slices?
14 <simone> yeah
14 <normanbarker> galeon is my driver, 5D is a requirement
15 <Martin_> It would also be able to read 3D slices if a file contains more than one image. A simple GridCoverageReader implementation could assumes that all images in a stream is a 2D slice, and consider the whole stream as a 3D coverage. From the user point of view, we would have a 3D coverage reader.
16 <normanbarker> I am not sure that is that different from a bands approach
16 <Martin_> Similar; the difference is a little bit arbitrary.
17 <cresques> 3d slices is a must, for satelite images
17 <Martin_> GridCoverage make a distinction between CRS dimensions and sample dimensions.
17 <Martin_> A band is a SampleDimension, but I agree that the difference is a little bit arbitrary.
17 <normanbarker> the thing with 3d, is that it would be nice to take vertical slices from a 3d cube (atmospheric data say)
18 <simone> Let me try to explain this, therefore I can see if I am understanding this or not
18 <cresques> there are too a more complicated data samples, as a landsat 7 scene, by example. 8 images with 3 different resolutions
19 <simone> let's say I have a data set which is air pressure and air temperature ina certain zone on the earth at different altitudes over a time range
19 <simone> this means 5D
19 <simone> 2 params
20 <simone> + 4D x,y,z,t
20 <Martin_> It would be a 4D GridCoverage with 2 SampleDimensions.
20 |<-- jgarnett has left irc.eu.freenode.net ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a Firefox 1.0.4/20050511")
20 <simone> than 5D
20 <simone> then
20 <simone> even if your definition is more precise
21 <simone> in such a situation
22 <simone> the reader would be aware of the multidmensional nature using Stream meatadata
22 <simone> and then it would select the slices to use using ImageReadParams set using the slices' IIometadata
22 <normanbarker> vertical slices?
23 <Martin_> Not all work need to be on GridCoverage reader side. Lets me explain:
24 <simone> vertial
24 <simone> and temporal
24 <simone> and based on parameters
24 <simone> at the very end
24 <simone> a slice
24 <simone> would be 2D (xy)
24 <simone> but would have also
24 <simone> a time
24 <simone> a level
25 <Martin_> Lets use javax.imageio.ImageReader as an exemple. ImageReader is capable to performs decimation while reading the image. However, it doesn't performs interpolations; this is beyond the scope of ImageReader. ImageReader read datasubset only when it can be done without involving significant computation process.
25 <Martin_> If a user want to performs a subsampling using an interpolation method, he is better to read the full image and uses a JAI operation.
25 <Martin_> For vertical slice, I would said:
26 <Martin_> If the data layout on disk is organized in such a way than a vertical slice can be extracted in a natural way (for example the 3D coverage is already organized as a stack of vertical slices), then it is GridCoverageReader's work.
27 <simone> I am working on grib
27 <simone> since they a re a good example of this
27 <Martin_> Otherwise, we may consider that it is the job's of a GridCoverage's operation to be applied on the 3D GridCoverage after the reading, hoping that deferred execution and tiling will keep memory requirement at an acceptable level.
27 <simone> in a grib file
27 <simone> you can store
27 <simone> 5d dataser easily
28 <simone> and the format is well defined
28 <normanbarker> 3d coverage is a stack of vertical levels, I am thinking of a slice from top to bottom, bbox = x,y,z?
29 <Martin_> Yes, I understand that. Since a slice from top to bottom do not fit the "natural" layout of data and need processing power, it may be GridCoverageProcessor's work rather than GridExchangeWork.
29 <cresques> to read the full image it's not a good approach. They must be ways of choose not to do so, even for processes with high computation needs
29 <Martin_> We should not turn GridCoverageExchange into a GridCoverageProcessor.
30 <simone> basically it would result in applying a GridCoverageProcessor to each xy slice that fits the requested 2d levels
30 <simone> am i right Martin?
30 <simone> 3d
30 <Martin_> Maybe something like that. It need investigation...
31 <simone> I think it should not be big deal
32 <simone> subsetting 3rd 4th and 5th dim
32 <simone> all the hard work
32 <simone> (reprojections etc..)
32 <simone> is on xy==2d
32 <simone> and there is strong support for that in geotools
32 |<-- pramsey has left irc.eu.freenode.net ()
32 <Martin_> We have to keep in mind that even when we request the whole 3D GridCoverage, it doesn't means that it will be read fully in memory. We should try to get deffered execution to work as much as possible.
33 <simone> yeah
33 <simone> I agree
33 <simone> that is a matter of writing correctly the plugins for readers
33 <simone> I am thinking about
34 <simone> doin 3d
34 <simone> x,y,t with a series of tiled tiff
34 <simone> right now we could load only what we need
34 <simone> seamlessly
34 <simone> leveraging JAI readers
34 <simone> that should be the goal for all the plugins we wrote
35 <Martin_> Agree.
36 <Martin_> We are going late. Should we close this IRC, try to put some note on Bryce's pages and decide for a next IRC meeting?
36 <cresques> yes, it sounds the right way
36 <simone> cool
36 <cresques> here it's 1:35 AM
37 <simone> same here
37 <simone> but it was worth it
37 <Martin_> Wow! Time to close.
37 <normanbarker> thanks, Andrew Woolf and myself have found it interesting
37 <simone> let's schedule next one
37 <simone> or at least try to
37 <Martin_> In 2 weeks?
38 <simone> sure
38 <simone> conclusions?
38 <simone> 1>volunteering for geoapi
38 <simone> 2>iiometadata
39 <simone> ??
39 <Martin_> 3>ImageReaderParam
39 <Martin_> 4>Put common parts in org.geotools.coverage.io package
40 <Martin_> 2.5>Looks at OGC spec for an IIOMetadataFormat
40 <simone> I can start working on 2-2.5-3 and write something on the RnD
41 <Martin_> 3.5>Find some way to express a parameter for requesting a slice in a N-dimensional GridCoverage at least when it match the natural data layout.
41 <Martin_> Nice! Thanks.
41 <simone> I am trying to get some prototype using Grib files
41 <simone> they are nice to do that
41 <simone> they are usually small in size
41 <simone> but with a lot of level and time instants and params!
44 <simone> i think you send an email asking for 1
44 <simone> should send
45 <Martin_> Will send one on the GeoAPI mailing list.
{excerpt:informal breakout session on GC
MatthiasB If things have officially finished: May I ask why some people have so bit problems with Java5?
MatthiasB Is it just compatibility with other/older projects?
Jody_ More then half the prople work on J2EE
Jody_ and that does not do Java 5 yet
MatthiasB I see.
dblasby people are still using 1.3
Jody_ One thing I would ask you to do is read http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Development
jmacgill particualry true for geoserver as it is server side
Jody_ It outlines all sorts of stuff, like when the meeting times are, how to submit a patch etc...
rgould Jody_, you mentioned we should update the RoadMap page?
Jody_ I imagine you will submit a few SLD patches until the maintainer gets sick of it and nominates you for commit rights.
Jody_ Yeah.
bnordgren is simboss or Martin here? I wanted to follow up on the GridCoverage sidebar...
Jody_ Here is the Java 5 part - http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Language
Jody_ simboss is here
simboss % am here
Jody_ and I should actually talk to both of you
bnordgren Uh oh.
Jody_ We had a meeting with OSSIM earlier today (should of brought this up in the meeting)
Jody_ and they want to play with us at some point.
AlFa Hi all I'm Alessio
simboss cool...
bnordgren who are they?
Jody_ And are also interested in impelemnting GridCoverage and getting into GeoServer.
bnordgren hi alessio
Jody_ http://www.ossim.org/tiki-index.php
simboss very cool....
AlFa Hi Bryce
bnordgren sweet!
Jody_ They do amazing raster stuff, and have a 3D viewer that was big at OSG'05
simboss I already took a look hen I was up in norway....
simboss OSGPlanet
simboss or something like it...
Jody_ So yeah, they have a release to do and will talk to us in about 3 weeks time.
simboss ok
Jody_ And best part yet - they know of JAI and are not against playing nice at that level.
simboss can I do something like a summary of what me and alessio are doing right now?
simboss (cool)
Jody_ I was a bit worried that it would be a culture clash.
bnordgren yup. (excellent)
simboss because it seems like we are not working on geotols
simboss bu it is not like that
Jody_ For all our talk of going out and working with other projects, it is nice to see it start to happen (even if we did not make the first move).
simboss ok
Jody_ Sorry simboss - I am done now.
simboss cool....
simboss first of all
simboss I talked to my boss and he let me free to use the name of our contractor
simboss so nobody ahs to wonder why we work with geotools and geoserver!
simboss
Jody_ I dont think it occured to me to wonder
simboss well somebody ask...
simboss asked
simboss
bnordgren ok, who's your contractor?
simboss ops
simboss ;_0
simboss we work on ajoint project
cholmes Do we get a prize if we guess it?
simboss from various NATO research centers
dblasby you were outed on the udig list I think a few weeks ago...
simboss because it seems that NATO is interested in OGC tech
simboss ah ah
simboss yeah
simboss a girl who worls for me
simboss she was not supposed to do that
simboss I got a bit nervous about it
simboss so now
cholmes You guys forgot to change the headers of one of source codes in wcs. And I remembered you originally showed up in geotools with nato address....
simboss yeah
simboss before they told me not to do so
simboss ok
AlFa no problem .. Unclassified projects
simboss now the interesting thing
simboss basically
simboss during june we have been testing
simboss 8 hours a day
simboss geoserver and geotools
dblasby ... wow, we're like the web sherlock holmes...
simboss in a live expertise
simboss experiment
dblasby (you didnt shell geoserver did you?)
simboss (shell? what do you mean?)
bnordgren yeah?
simboss after that month we stopped coding as hell, we sit down and we started to think how
simboss to make things better
simboss I have beenn studing JAI and Coverage packages
simboss very deeply
Jody_ (I am surprised you guys lasted as long as you did/do with GridCoverageExchange)
simboss andalessio have been thinking about ingestion engine and 3d-4d dataset
simboss now he is working on the design of the ingestn engine and wms neted layers
simboss I am trying to get REAL gridcoverage support
simboss which means
simboss pyramids, mosaics, more reader and writer
simboss as I wrote in the email I exchanged with martin
simboss basically
bnordgren are we moving to ISO19123 first or is this more support for GCE?
Jody_ simboss would you like to be included the next time we talk to OSSIM?
simboss that is one ofthe reasons why
simboss we are not commiting
simboss code
simboss since
simboss if we move tISO19123
simboss we do not want to rewrite vode
simboss that is why I would like to talk to martin
Jody_ We are not very attached to GCE - and I think that is the direction martin wants to move in.
Jody_ There is one major problem
Jody_ ISO is not open. And is very hard for an open source project to do.
MatthiasB Why?
Jody_ If volunteers cannot download and look at the spec they can only work against the interfaces that someone who read the spec made for them.
bnordgren DId ISO19123 ever get adopted by OGC?
Jody_ Volunteers don't want to pay ISO to play.
Jody_ Not sure bruce how to we check?
simboss Well
simboss i read the iso19123
rgould what is 19123?
simboss as a private copy
simboss (the new specification ISO is releasing for coverages)
rgould ok
bnordgren ??? It was just the last hangup martin reported.
simboss I have tcheck first
simboss but I think that OGC should adopt it
simboss and then
simboss we should be able to use it for free
simboss like the others adopted ISO specifications
simboss or anyway
Jody_ I am more then happy to go to something, but I just wanted to let you know that if it is ISO it all comes down to how much of the spec you can place in interfaces (and not get in trouble for).
simboss agree
Jody_ In anycase how are you finding the ISO spec? Is it clear?
simboss we have to check
simboss Well
simboss i read it quickly
simboss and It wass not so clear to me
cholmes Is it an abstract spec? If so I think we could just have the interfaces 'inspired' by it. Enough to keep Martin happy to endorse the changes, yet the interfaces would be open for us.
simboss Martin should have a deeper understanding of it
simboss he already wrote some interfaces out of it
simboss anyway
simboss I will take some more time to read it again before next irc
cholmes I just want something that meets the needs where gce is failing, and that keeps Martin happy, and working on it, which it seems like 19123 is a good candidate for.
cholmes So does this mean NATO is joining the OGC?
simboss hoping that MArtin will pick up a new time for the (in)famous GridCoverage breakout meeting
Jody_ lol
simboss i do not think they will do that officially
cholmes Oh yeah, one thing on that - Jody_ do you need to be at this meeting? If Jody's not there that opens up a lot more times.
AlFa Chris ... the life at NATO is not so happy
simboss I do not even think I can talk about that at all!
Jody_ huh? Please don't hold it up on my account. I also don't mind attending at some stupid hour if I have to.
Jody_ I am more interested in simboss and martin getting their game on.
bnordgren I do I need my beauty sleep.
Jody_ And please don't keep GridCoverageExchange alive on my account.
simboss I think martin as some good ideas on how to proceed
cholmes That's what I thought - simboss, just figure out when you and martin can meet. Oh right, bryce would be good to have there too...
simboss that is why I stopped coding as hell as We have been doing so far
simboss in these 5 months
cholmes But probably best to get the two of you on the same page, and the rest can read the transcripts and talk on email.
simboss weMe and Alessio made enough experience on coverges to relly be of help
bnordgren copy that. My motivation to pour a lot of energy into a temporary API is fairly small.
simboss (even with udig which seems to need an injection of good raster suport)
cholmes And the word is that gce just simply won't meet the 4d type support? It sounds like new interfaces are definitely in order.
AlFa we play with a lot of raster data everyday
simboss well
simboss in my opinion
simboss gce
simboss is not suitable when working with mothan 2 dimension
simboss readers and writers just do not suite!
simboss we need something more
simboss and I think doing that without standards would be an error
Jody_ gce is all about finding data - and it is not good at it. The readers and writers were martins idea (he wanted to stream the content from the web or something).
simboss the reader and writer concept itself is great
Jody_ I have no problem sticking with standards for the data representation, and doing our own thing to find the data.
simboss JAI itself is based on that
Jody_ (see DataStore API )
cholmes simboss - are you guys doing 5d? Did you get my cc today? Some guy going for a project to do open source WCS that supports temporal and z parameters. Found geoserver and mapserver lacking and was thinking of writing his own.
simboss if you study JAI deeply you see that GridCoverage from OGC has the same skeleton of JAI
simboss which means
simboss mainly 2D
bnordgren 5D typically decomposes to "variable" + 4d (3 spatial + 1 temporal)
simboss we never thought about 5d
simboss but itonce you go for 3d and 4d
cholmes Yeah, I agree with Jody_, the standards are a great starting point, but you don't need to stick to them absolutely
simboss whould not be a big problem
simboss i agree
simboss but we have to find a way to reuse the big amoutn of cde we have
simboss the Coverage support that martin built
simboss is simply wonderful
cholmes Cool. Respond to the email and tell him what you guys have planned, hopefully can steer him to contributing instead of writing from scratch, if they get it.
simboss and there are already classes for 3d and 4d
simboss i will
simboss we were talking about it with alessio earlier
simboss we need someone to ping Martin for the (in)famous meeting
simboss that would realy help to get started
simboss SpatioTemporalCoverage3D.java
simboss CoverageStack.java
simboss are working
simboss and are able to handle
simboss stack of GridCoverages2D
bnordgren let's email him then. I'm between you two, so anything acceptable to you is going to be good for me.
simboss therefore
simboss we are able to support 3d 4d
simboss 5d
simboss nd
simboss we needto work
simboss on the reader, writer and discovery part for data being ND (N>2)
simboss I already eailed him
simboss but I got no answer
simboss bryce could yo email him again?
Jody_ aside: this is more productive then the meeting - I am going to leave the agenda thing alone for a couple of months.
bnordgren anyone got a phone number? Yeah. I can email him.
simboss going back to ossim
Jody_ You guys should package up this IRC and send it to martin.
simboss when do you intend to talk to them again jody?
bnordgren Not sure how to do that. My first IRC.
Jody_ three weeks time, they have a release they are working on.
Jody_ You can cut and paste it into an email - real low tech!
Jody_ Are you using OSSIM right now simboss?
simboss nope
simboss I just ran into it
simboss like two months ago
simboss while looking around the net
simboss since
Jody_ Ah okay.
simboss I was interested in working wth gdal
simboss and I stated talking with warmerdam about a port
simboss but then I stopeed
Jody_ Jesse_Eichar was very impressed with it.
Jesse_Eichar That I was.
simboss they should have a JOSsim
cholmes I was as well.
simboss but at the time it was not public yet
Jody_ We bothered them about it, apparently the autogenerate it and it will be part of that three week release thing.
simboss cool
cholmes Gvsig guys sound like they're finally opening their raster support.
simboss yeah
simboss we talked to them
cholmes jgdal, jmrsid, ect.
simboss igdal?
simboss jgdal
simboss who's doing so?
cholmes gvsig guys. They've already done it. They're opening it in like 3 weeks or something.
cholmes It's GPL, so you an only use it in geoserver...
Jody_ simboss gvSig has been sending me and chris private emails on this topic.
cholmes But it should be worth checking out.
Jody_ We are trying to get them to release source code (should not be hard for a GPL product?)
simboss jgdal would be cool
simboss but if it is not possible to have tat in geotools
simboss it might be useless....
cholmes Frank's not super happy with it. He says because it's incomplete. I've not looked at it. But it's also probably to some extent since I don't htink he's a big GPL fan.
cholmes Yeah, we'll have to investigate...
simboss anyway
simboss first thing
simboss is to talk with marting about general directions
Jody_ simboss: mind if I send the last bit of the IRC to martin?
2.1.0 release process, Java 5, SLD Widgets
Jody_ Hey matthias - I was going hit up jdeolive for maven know how during todays meeting.
Jody_ Have you met Justin before?
MatthiasB Not sure.
MatthiasB It's only the third time I'm on IRC.
MatthiasB PS. I'm just looking at the SVN to find the "spike".
rgould It doesn't look like it is there currently Matthias
rgould oh wait
rgould n/m
bnordgren what does "spike" mean, anyway?
jdeolive its just a place where risky or unstable development should take place
jdeolive to prevent polluting the trunk of the repository
MatthiasB Where on the path is it?
rgould geotools/trunk/spike
jdeolive shouldn't that be geotools/spike
rgould I am not sure
rgould but that is where it is currently
jdeolive i guess it doesn't really matter
bnordgren ah. forgive dumb question, but how is "spike" related to branches?
rgould I'm not sure
rgould I am using a branch for my FPS work, but I guess I could just have used a spike too
jdeolive spike is for temporary or volatile things
jdeolive branching is used when it is meant to be incorporated into the stable code base at a later date
jdeolive and branches are usually used if you are modyfing the original code base
jdeolive this is in my experience of course
rgould Ok
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rgould Sounds like I made the right choice
jdeolive i think so
bnordgren thx. It's all a little clearer.
MatthiasB For me too.
-->| jmacgill (~cholmes@chaos.tentacle.net) has joined #geotools
jmacgill Hi all
rgould jody is back now - I guess we could start
rgould hi james
rgould agenda items?
jmacgill 2.1 release process feedback
Jody_ 2) Mattias and Jody causing trouble - Java 5 spikes
MatthiasB SLD widgets?
Jody_ that makes a good 3)
rgould anything else?
Jody_ We should update http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Road+Map
Jody_ Sounds good
MatthiasB ... and update the code snippets, please.
Jody_ 1) 2.1 Release Process feedback
rgould ok
rgould I had a concern with the process
rgould Also noted that cholmes updated the wiki page to reflect releasing on Fridays/weekends. THanks Chris (and sorry for doing so
cholmes No worries - it wasn't on the wiki, and I'd never mentioned it before...
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rgould I am unsure of the role that the list server and dists.geotools.org plays with releasing
rgould when a release is made, should the jars be placed on dists.geotools.org
rgould ?
jmacgill that was my plan, though I think having dist on codehaus is a problem
rgould hmm
jmacgill as it is so very hard to upload to it.
rgould once a decision is reached we also need to update the wiki
Polio sounds reasonable to me ... what about the sf site
Polio then can point the wiki at it
jmacgill sf tends to be very slow unless you use the formal download (which wont work as a repo)
jmacgill note we are talking here about a maven repository for the jars not the src/bin/javadoc releases
bnordgren ibiblio?
rgould What are other alternatives? lists.refractions.org? ibiblio?
rgould refractions.net 
rgould I have had too much coffee
jmacgill ibiblio has authentication problems too
Polio oh, then just put it on lists with a version number
jmacgill only myself and martin have upload rights
jmacgill it must not be in the same repo as our 3rd party jars
Polio udig will probably need one to build against (jody?)
jmacgill or builds will get confused
rgould ok - I remember for the last release I put them up on lists.refractions.net, but that was just a temporary thing so one developer couuld use them
Polio james, you can use the same repo ... just need to change the path structure some (I've tricked it before)
rgould something like lists.refractions.net/dists
Polio richard
jmacgill that would work, as long as inside that was a normal maven repo structure
rgould I'm looking at the list server now, and I can't see the repository I put up there last time
rgould oh, that's right. I put it in gt2/jars
rgould but you guys like the idea of lists.refractions.net/geotools/dists?
Polio I do
jmacgill I would prefere if refractions could vhost dist.geotools.org to point at that directory
rgould that would be ideal
cholmes Andrea says hi to everyone (I was chatting with him on ym).
Jody_ So just to be clear we need two maven repos, one for building geotools and one for letting others build on geotools..
Jody_ Hi back.
rgould correct
rgould and "dist" would be the latter
rgould OK - so I will set that up at some point (today or tomorrow) and update the wiki
Jody_ Sounds good.
rgould I will see if we can get dist.geotools.org too
Jody_ Question about documentation
rgould "dist" or "dists"?
CIA-10 lavila * r14899 udig/community/lavila/plugins/org.cgiar.cip.diva.gbox/src/org/cgiar/cip/diva/gbox/GBoxCounter.java: Image Generation Tested, GridCoverage Creation Still missing
Jody_ should I split it into geotools 2.0 and 2.1? Aka only have the spearfish demo for 2.0 until migrate is delt with?
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rgould ok - I guess we should move on
rgould 2) Mattias and Jody causing trouble - Java 5 spikes
Jody_ Oh can I get my documentation question answered first?
rgould sure
Jody_ Can I hack away most of our documentation and place it on a 2.0 page?
jmacgill probably best for now, yes
cholmes Ok, Java 5 spikes scare me greatly.
MatthiasB And then create a new 2.1 page or what?
Jody_ Okay, just thought I should ask before removing most of the docs.
cholmes Why do you need java 5?
Jody_ Well I want it because I am trying to provide a transition interface for the GeoAPI interfaces.
Jody_ Aka using the geoapi filter syntax with geotools FeatureType.
cholmes GeoAPI interfaces are against java 5?
Jody_ GeoAPI is Java5 and Java1.4 - and that is very useful!
Polio they back port them I thought
Jody_ So I want to do the same thing for my transition interfaces.
Jody_ Actually I would like to do that for all the geotools interfaces.
Jody_ Mattias why do you want Java 5?
Polio un hun ... and they are going to help a 1.4 code base by ____?
cholmes Ok. If you can backport it all with just including an extra jar or two. If we get classes that require Java 5 I'm going to be very, very upset.
cholmes Yeah, that's my concern too. Exactly what is the win? Since this is extra trouble.
MatthiasB Well, I just started with it when it came out, before considering GeoTools.
MatthiasB But the spikes are more than "just" a place where Java5 people can play.
MatthiasB Jody mentioned it when I was looking for a place for the GeoWidgets source code.
MatthiasB I'd like to give it a try.
jmacgill The win, as I understand it, is a much simpler API for Java 5 develoeprs (like uDIG) whilst having a 100% binary compatability with Java 1.4
Jody_ The other thing is both project just have eclipse build right now, I was going to ask Justin for some maven help.
Polio ummm, it's quite a hard trick for binary compatibility ... you need to mangle the code prior to the compilation phase
cholmes Ok, if GeoWidgets is on a path to migrate to its own project then I'm fine with it.
Jody_ I was looking into retroweaver, but the goal here is the interfaces (and I can just do what Martin does for geoapi).
Polio that said .. there are pre-processors avil.
Jody_ Retroweaver has an ant task. So hopefully Justin can set me up and we can do the same thing for GeoWidgets...
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MatthiasB I've read an article about someone who tried to "just backport some 1.5 project to 1.4. He gave up soon, even with Regrovewaver.
Jody_ Although I am not sure if there is interest in Java1.4 widgets?
Jody_ Well for interfaces we do have a working example - GeoAPI.
CIA-10 pramsey * r14900 udig/plugins/net.refractions.udig.catalog.shp/src/net/refractions/udig/catalog/internal/shp/ShpServiceImpl.java: made shpService not die if file can not be indexed
MatthiasB Yeah. they are easier I guess.
Jody_ pramsey above is jesse I bet - working on mac?
Jesse_Eichar yes
MatthiasB So I guess I should apply for commit rights on a newly to create directory .../spike/geowidgets, shouldn't I?
Polio I have to run, but -1 for any form of java 1.5
cholmes I imagine it's probably fine if geowidgets targets 1.5. GeoServer is 1.4, but I don't think we have any use of the widgets...
MatthiasB It won't harm Geotools in any way.
Jody_ The main benifit will be the abuse the Style objects get.
MatthiasB ?
Jody_ So +1 for me for Matthias he has already helped out on udig
Polio well, I'm wondering why it's in a spike if it won't be used by GT ...
Polio but that's an aside
rgould I didn't realize Matthias didn't have commit rights already - +1 for that from me
cholmes I too am skeptical of java 1.5, but if you want to experiment and prove that it will work seamless, then you can try.
Polio -1, I have not seem any GT code submissions which follow the GT code conventions
cholmes Yeah, what's the justificatoin for spike? Just a nice place to help him out to get started?
Jody_ We can make it a spike in udig for GeoWidgets if you want.
MatthiasB I thought it will be in a spike because it is not used by Geotools.
Jody_ yes to both of that.
Jody_ I will also point that StyleMapPane may want to go live in GeoWidgets
cholmes I'm fine with it either place. I'm +0 as I'e not seen gt code submissions...
Jody_ Perhaps we can talk about that when Jesse gets back ...
cholmes Polio -1 means he doesn't get commit rights.
Jody_ Thanks guys - sorry for the Java 5 trouble - must seem like a distraction to most of you.
cholmes Which is fine if that's what you want, just so you know. Committers are 3 positive no negatives.
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jmacgill rephrase, commit rights to spike only
MatthiasB I understand the rules. So I could release it into a new sf project first and you may have a look at it and then decide. OK?
Luis33 Hi, I am trying to add a raster as a layer, I have an image and an envelope, I was getting the message "Unabled to locate code" when trying this code
Luis33 GridCoverage2D grid = new GridCoverage2D("Counter", image, CRS.decode("ESPG:4326"),(org.opengis.spatialschema.geometry.Envelope) bbox);
Jody_ I think it is the ESPG - I be that is supposed to be EPSG ....
Polio I just wanted to see an effort at actual GT code, the code that was presented didn't wasn't in 1.4, and doesn't expand / improve the codebase
Luis33 hmmm
Jody_ Luis33 can we help you after our meeting? Maybe 20 more min...
rgould Jody_, you are right
cholmes I'm +1 to commit to spike only, since it's not connected to anything, and geowidgets sounds promising to me.
Luis33 yes jody, that should be the problem, trying now with epsg
jmacgill Polio, will you retract your -1 if the grant is to spike only?
rgould Polio, any objections to commit rights to spike only?
Polio I'm probably missing something here, but is there a plan to import geowidgets into the codebase ... and by his own admission, it won't affect the gt codebase ...
Polio not spike only
rgould I think geowidgets will be a separate project
rgould is that right?
MatthiasB @Polio You are right. It is currently not my intention to commit code TO gt, but rather work on geowidgets. (and file issues).
Jody_ I think the plan is to help start a project and move some of the geotools widget code out of geotools into this new home.
Polio but i'm still a bit puzzled here,
Polio ah, ok starting to make a bit more sense
Jody_ Aka StyleMapPane and Zoom tools and things that we don't have time energy to maintain.
rgould why don't we just start a new project and skip the spike phase?
MatthiasB That's what I suggested first, but I'm open to nearly everything.
Jody_ I would also like to work on making SLD editors with Matthias - so we will hammer a lot of the udig models and stick events on them.
jmacgill I have to join a telecon
Jody_ We can host it in udig community if you want, it would be nice to be in the same svn so we can move StyledMapPane and keep the history.
Polio well, I'll change my vote to a +0
Polio (for spike)
rgould ok, so that's +1 from me, cholmes and Jody_ - time to move on?
cholmes isn't udig community on the same cvs server? Wasn't that the point of puttin gthem all on the same one, to move across projects and keep history?
Jody_ Matthias I can help get you set up.
Jody_ Yes.
Polio that's why he want's to work in spike
MatthiasB Thanks. I guess the codebase is ready in app. 2 days. I'd like to know if you...
rgould ok - 3) SLD widgets
<-- lavila has left irc.freenode.net (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
<-- Polio has left irc.freenode.net ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a Firefox 1.0.3/20050414") Jody_ Basically a bunch of color theory types giving us a decent set of palettes to communicate Sequential, Diverging and Qualitative data. |
The GeoTools Project is pleased to announce the release of GeoTools 2.1.0.
New to this release is support for DB2, Web Feature Server (WFS), Web Map Server (WMS), and indexed Shapefiles.
GeoTools continues to support open standards. This release features the adoption of the GeoAPI 2.0 coordinate reference system model. The GeoTools library provides a client implementation for the Open Geospatial Consortium's (OGC) Web Feature Service (WFS) and Web Map Service (WMS). Additional ISO and OGC standards include Styled Layer Descriptor (SLD), Filter Encoding, Grid Coverage Exchange, and TC211 metadata standards.
The library represents a complete GIS software stack that allows additional functionality through the use of plug-ins. GeoTools allows you to work with your existing infrastructure of Shapefile, DB2, PostGIS, ArcSDE, Oracle Spatial, MySQL.
This release features improved performance of LiteRenderer, Shapefile (now indexable), and PostGIS.
To download GeoTools, please visit http://www.geotools.org/2.1.0.
The GeoTools community remains extremely active. Work continues on catalog, metadata, and HSQL. Developers are invited to join the project and participate in development.
This release is made in conjunction with GeoServer 1.3.0-RC2 and the upcoming release of uDig 1.0.1.
The GeoTools Project Management Committee
1) 2.1 release 2) FPS 3) GridCoverage IRC breakout 4) Expr/GeoAPI experiment 5) pep talk with dblasby
rgould Guess we should get started? Agenda items?
jgarnett Hi richard!
rgould Hallo
jgarnett Well we can talk about 2.1 and migrate
jgarnett but email may have covered that ...
rgould I can talk a bit about FPS and branching, but I don't know if anyone cares
rgould I haven't caught up on email yet
jgarnett The gridcoverge types seem to be setting up for a break out IRC.
jgarnett I wanted to talk to Gabriel
jgarnett But I have been in meetings all morning and have not scanned in the FeatureType diagrams I wanted to share with him.
groldan no problem, let it do tomorrow and follow discussion on email list?
jgarnett I guess.
jgarnett So what do we have:
groldan I was stressed all day too, have a presentation tomorrow
jgarnett 1) 2.1 release (and migrate and WFS patch)
jgarnett 2) FPS
jgarnett 3) GridCoverage breakout meeting announcement time?
jgarnett 4) Expr/GeoAPI experiment
jgarnett Anyone else?
jgarnett Just pinging james and dblasby
dblasby hi everyone, sorry I'm late
jgarnett Any agenda items dblasby?
dblasby there seems to be a lot of ideas (and people who are actually going to code them) flying around on the mailing lists.
jgarnett True, nice to have enthusiasm. Did you want to have a 5) mad planz as an agenda item dave?
dblasby I'm just want to make sure everyone is talking and working together - which I think is happening. perhaps 5) encourgement pep-talk.
jgarnett okay
jgarnett I am going to get started ...
jgarnett 1) 2.1 release (and migrate and WFS patch)
jgarnett To start with I think I have the all clear from Polio to patch WFS on the 2.1.x branch?
Polio yah, I forgot to copy over the fix to the branch (code is on head)
jgarnett That is the last functionality holdback I know of for 2.1.0, I want to have a 2.1.0 sanitiy check release out today
rgould Should I fix the WMS tests before 2.1.0 goes out?
Polio also in you test branch, looked good
Polio rgould: or delete them ...
jgarnett Thanks, was late in the project so we were extra careful And wrote good test cases...
cholmes sounds good for sanity check after wfs patch
jgarnett Good question, better ask the WMS module maintainer that ...
jgarnett ... rgould?
rgould If some are failing, I will deal with them.
rgould There are some that I have commented out though (I think the servers changed configuration on me...)
rgould I will see if I can deal with them.
jgarnett dblasby what day is geoserver 1.3.RC"next" going out?
dblasby There's a few bugs that people are verifying are fixed.
dblasby they said they would be getting back to me today.
dblasby I have to write a presentation on OS GIS for wed noon, so I'll probably release either wed afternoon or thursday morning.
jgarnett okay so the 2.1.SC1 at the end of the day sounds good then.
dblasby excellent - I will not get a chance to do anything with it until wed.
jgarnett We can rename it 2.1.0 for your presentation, give you something important to announce
dblasby not going to talk about too many projects in particular (but I might demo udig and geoserver)
jgarnett nice, cholmes has a demo later in the week as well. We are going to dub a stable build today that you guys can use, and package up two walkthroughs (one of which includes editing GeoServer)
cholmes cool
jgarnett The other, scary issue for 2.1.0 is migrate.
dblasby excellent
jgarnett James has asked me to keep it and mark it as unsupported.
jgarnett I wonder if I should provide it as a separate download to really bring the point across?
jgarnett I also tried to ask for help on the users list (as people use the j2d renderer).
jgarnett Does anyone have strong feelings either way?
jmacgill Hi all, sorry I'm late
Polio yah, then you have to include the jar just like a DS
jgarnett jgarnett 1) 2.1 release (and migrate and WFS patch)
jgarnett 2) FPS
jgarnett 3) GridCoverage breakout meeting announcement time?
jgarnett 4) Expr/GeoAPI experiment
5) pep talk from dave
Flwyd What would be involved, and with what time constraints, for someone from the users list to make J2D work?
jmacgill best person to answer that would be Martin
jmacgill as regards what would bneed to be done, best person for time constraint would be Jody
jmacgill If the migration can be done without fully understanding J2D then it should be fairly easy
jmacgill if it means re-writing any part of it then it is beyond even the most confident geotools hacker tends to be afraid
jgarnett Better ask Jesse, he is the only persion I know who has looked at the code ... and lived. Andrea looked as well but is MIA.
jgarnett Jesse_Eichar comment?
Jesse_Eichar I don't really know it at all. Just the surface and the basic basic structure.
dblasby is there something missing in lite thats in J2d?
AlFa hi all by Alessio
jgarnett It is more that the demos and the examples people use are J2d, because that is the one with a canvas that allows ineraction.
Flwyd Built-in interactive operations like zoom, pan, rotate
jgarnett (I of course welcome as many possible developers to udig )
jmacgill Their used to be, but the gap is narrowing. The main thing that J2D has is a rendered geometry cache so pan/zoom can be very fast - takes some work for it to be able to stream though
dblasby what about moving the udig stuff into geotools?
jgarnett When last measured LiteRenderer working from a memory datastore was close in performance.
jgarnett And so much simplier ...
dblasby that might be a better use of time?
Jesse_Eichar j2d also a decent UI associated with it.
dblasby (I have no idea what kinda work would be involved)
Jesse_Eichar that is the thing people like. It'd take a while to make one for LiteRenderer.
jgarnett You tried once did you not Jesse? Is it available as a demo or testcase?
Flwyd The UI for J2D seems fairly simple to implement on top of LiteRenderer
jgarnett What I would like to see is a backport of the udig Renderer interface, so whatever ui exists for people to extend can take advantage of some of the optimizations that are available.
Jesse_Eichar I got a very simple JFrame that will allow some zooming, maybe. I don't remember how far I got.
Jesse_Eichar But the j2d one had tool tips, good zooming and a bunch of other stuff.
dblasby From what I've heard over the last few months is that no one really understands the J2D renderer and it would take quite a bit of time to figure out and make it easier to maintain. If its just a few simple things that make it "better", it might be smarter to put all our resources into one renderer ..
jgarnett Flwyd what is the minimal set that you need? J2d is a bit to complex for us to support as is ...
jgarnett I would like to throw up an interface and let people use Lite or J2D behind it (based simply on their expected memory use and data size).
Jesse_Eichar j2d is only understood by martin. I haven't really tried except when asked questions about it from clients.
Jesse_Eichar I agree. but that is easier said than done.
Jesse_Eichar the ui stuff might have to be redone to get it to work... mind you I don't know what changes martin has done. I know he migrated some stuff in to and extension.
dblasby perhaps we should invest time in migrating the documentation over to lite so people will used that instead of worrying about j2d?
jgarnett Sorry Flwyd we really don't seem to know the difficulty involved, would you like to try? We can swap email on the list as difficulties are discovered. The only big change has been from CoordinateReference (an old interface) toCoordinateReferenceS ystem (a new interface).
Flwyd Zoom, pan, geo mouse events, zoom change events, update on feature source events
Flwyd If doing that is easier with LiteRenderer than porting J2D renderer, LiteRenderer sounds like the way to go.
jgarnett lite renderer is all about the drawing ...
Flwyd That is, if it's easier to wrap the Swing parts of J2D renderer around LIteRenderer than to fix J2D...
rgould BTW, WMS passed on trunk for me - WFS failed.
jgarnett the other stuff if "left" to an application (such as udig). Geotools tries to be a library. We are working on a set of "GeoWidgets", the stuff you are refering to was poplular when I first joined two years ago but I have not seen a lot of work done on it.
Jesse_Eichar WMS and WFS passed for me.
jgarnett Oh yeah way easier to wrap swing around LiteRenderer then fix J2D.
Flwyd Right. We used J2D because it was easier than doing that ourselves.
Jesse_Eichar I'd say so too.
Flwyd But if it's easier to do it ourselves (or port from udig) than to port J2D, it sounds sensible.
jgarnett Fair enough, uDig is LGPL and we can help point towards / provide code worth stealing (for concepts of Viewport and such like)
Jesse_Eichar LiteRenderer is easy to use. so if you know Swing then it would be easy.
jgarnett We went with SWT to get at the Eclipse RCP system (and users like the result).
jgarnett But all our rendering and Mouse event stuff makes use of good old AWT...
dblasby I'd really like to see what flwyd is doing put in a geowidgets project, if possible. I dont think this is going to be a lot of work (am I correct?)
jgarnett Normally what we do Flwyd is start up an RnD page on the wiki and do up an outline of what we want to accomplish. And then either start a new module (say ext/viewer) or make a branch ...
jgarnett dblasby geowidgets I think is a module in geotools for the moment, was going to be a separate project when ready ... but I could be wrong.
jgarnett (http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/Hacking)
Flwyd I don't think it should be a lot of work, either.
cholmes Flwyd did we get an introduction for you? Or did I come late? I'm just curious what you're up to (and you are allowed to give vague answers about who you work for and all, we're just a curious bunch, but many before have not been able to say).
Flwyd I'm Trevor Stone, from the mailing list.
Flwyd I work for Tyler Technologies - Eagle Division.
jgarnett I asked for help on the users list, because j2d is stuck in migrate. My understanding is Flwyd is a concerned geotools user
Flwyd Our main use of GIS is for county tax offices, so the data is stuff like parcels and roads.
cholmes Oh right, you've been on the lists for awhile.
Flwyd Our architecture is db/client/server, so we embed a GIS wiget in our client app and load features as needed
jgarnett cool
jgarnett I am just going to try and keep this meeting going, Flwyd can we talk more towards then end? Perhaps we should set up a module and get you commiter access ...
Flwyd I may be able to get better performance out of the LiteRenderer
Flwyd Sure.
jgarnett 2) FPS
rgould Ok - I will be implementing an FPS client in GeoTools
rgould What is FPS?
rgould Feature Portrayal Service - a WMS with no data
rgould one sec
rgould geotools build intefering
jgarnett ok, here now
=-= YOU are now known as rgould2
rgould2 Anyway - It is an OGC web service similar to WFS, WMS, WCS
rgould2 has an operation GetPortrayal that accepts a data source (WFS) and a Symbology Encoding (SE - a cut down version of SLD) and returns an image
rgould2 I am doing the work in a branch
rgould2 and it should result in the creation of two plug-ins. a generic OWS plug-in that WMS will probably use, and the main plugin for the FPS itself
rgould2 that's about it
=-= YOU are now known as jgarnett
jgarnett 3) GridCoverage breakout meeting announcement time?
jgarnett simboss?
simboss Yeah
simboss just a quick note
simboss we were thinking about doing a Coverage POrtrayal Service in GeoServer
simboss strange that someone mentioned a FPS as well...
simboss anywawy
rgould Coverage Portrayal ? interesting
simboss I am supposed to propose a time for Meeting on GridCoverages
rgould is there an OGC spec for it?
cholmes Is Coverage portrayal service also a spec?
simboss yeah
rgould that could be interesting
simboss Alessio shouldhave rad it
rgould I wouldn't mind having a look at it
simboss read
rgould i'll poke around the OGC site
jgarnett To be clear the FPS is a new spec
Jesse_Eichar sorry to interrupt.. WMS builds but WFS doesn't on my machine (TRUNK).
jgarnett well not even a spec.
simboss we basically need A raster symbolizer
rgould FPS is more of an experiment
jgarnett It is something that the OGC is defining, and richard is doing a client implementation of. It may not ever make it out into the real world.
jgarnett The interesting part is that it works with a subset of the SLD spec
jgarnett which is called SymbologyEncoding document.
jmacgill Jesse_Eichar does it build in cc at the moment?
AlFa yes, I have read about Coverage Portryal Service
jgarnett simboss did you establish a meeting time or did I miss it
rgould AlFa, where could I find the CPS spec?
Jesse_Eichar jmargill. Im not sure.
simboss not yet
simboss sorry...
jmacgill Jesse just checked for myself and it is broken... wil post unit test logs
AlFa I'll send you some links later, I don't have now
jgarnett (For the FPS spec the best resource will be the javadocs on the code richard writes).
simboss got excited about CPS
simboss getting back on track
rgould AlFa, is it on the OGC site somewhere?
rgould found it
simboss Martin is available between 22:00 GMT and 10:00 GMT
cholmes Sounds like they may be similar enough to combine code at some level? Though I suppose simboss is writing server side and rgould client...
simboss which for me means 2400 to 1200
AlFa yes I have read the OGC specs about it
rgould Yeah - but it might be easy to make both servers and clients
rgould I am just having a look at the CPS spec now
jgarnett FPS is really simple, does not even do image composition. WFS featuretype at a time etc ...
jgarnett 4) Expr/GeoAPI experiment
jgarnett While people think I will just do a quick update
jgarnett I am uploading to geotools/spike something very cool ...
jgarnett A implementation of GeoAPI Expression & Filter
jgarnett with our usual migration stratagy of making the Feature and Geometry point towards Geotools and JTS respectivly.
cholmes I mean, I'm for you guys going for both. udig + geoserver as the first FPS and CPS out the door?
jgarnett I am trying this out as a Java 5 code with retroweaver.
jgarnett That is this really is an experiment.
jgarnett However if successful it would be merged with trunk for 2.2
jgarnett I would like to see this happen before gabriel runs into the limitations of the existing FeatureType system as the two concepts feed on one another.
rgould Are there any implementations of CPS out there at all?
jgarnett The GeoAPI filter interfaces are a joy to use, nicely OO based.
jgarnett Are their any questions, or should we return to CPS discussion ...
AlFa No, I don't think
simboss you should!
AlFa however I think it'll be very simple to build CPS once we have the RasterSymbolizer
simboss
simboss even if sometimes it is better that way!
simboss yeah
dblasby whats retoroweaver and why did you use 1.5? is this mean geotools 2.2 is going to be java 1.5
dblasby ?
jgarnett Good question and good question...
jgarnett http://retroweaver.sourceforge.net/
jgarnett And I Java 5 lets be do my expression chaining with out messing the GeoAPI interfaces.
jgarnett I am uploading the code from my laptop now ... perhaps we can walk through it in a few minuets?
jgarnett This link has a good technical explaination: http://retroweaver.sourceforge.net/guide/retroweaver-guide.pdf
jgarnett nother attractive thing is it catches when you refer to Java 1.5 only classes/methods.
dblasby okay - thats good news.
jgarnett I actually like their style of docs ...
jgarnett One thing this does give us is a way to proceed with the geotools library when we know many J2EE users will remain with Java 1.4
jgarnett (and the GeoServer email list reminded us of this with a Java 1.3 request)
jgarnett I actually hoped we could set up a GeoTools 1.0 branch as the backport of Geotools 2.0 needed for the backport of GeoServer 1.2 ...
jgarnett my appologies two many versions in one sentence.
jgarnett If there is interest in backport Geotools/GeoServer to 1.3 we should put the result in version control and not lose it.
jmacgill do not mention GeoTools 1.0 again in this context, GT 1 referes to a much much older codebase
jmacgill for the sake of my sanity find a new name (GeoTools-2.0-sdk1.3) ??
cholmes Though it's not clear if Stuart actually is able to do that work.
jgarnett lol - it is only if users need it
cholmes Though at the very least it would be nice to get groldan's stuff that he's already done out in public
jgarnett Geotools negative 1? Geotools 1i?
jgarnett Well next up is a pep talk from dave I would like to send a couple of words of encouragement out, both to simboss (who is setting up a GC meeting with Martin), and to Floyd and any others looking into client side work.
jgarnett 5) pep talk from dave
groldan I can commit it to a branch, its only the minimun needed to get datastore working, but cannot really compromite to maintain it, if it needs it at all
Flwyd Geotools 2-1
dblasby I just wanted to say that there seems to be a lot happening in the next while.
CIA-10 jgarnett * r14822 geotools/spike/gtapi/: Initial import.
dblasby There's been a lot happening behind-the-scenes and I'm hoping that we can be a bit more open about what everyone is doing and where people are wanting to head.
jgarnett opps wonder if gtapi is a good name
dblasby I think there's lots of oportunities for collaboration which will be good for everyone.
dblasby I'd also like to make sure that we're communicating well with other java project and with the non-java projects.
simboss still have not set GC meeting time
dblasby for example, there's gvsig which most people probably dont know much about.
dblasby so, I think exciting stuff is happening!
jgarnett I want to work on: Filter / FeatureType / Metadata / Catalog in pretty much that order ..
jgarnett and I want to work with everyone Heck I have not even mentioned what I would like to do with GeoServer 2.0 / OSI
jgarnett What does everyone wish they had? Like right now ...
dblasby more users
rgould hell, I even have some ideas I would like to write up - but they are not really for GT/GS/uDig
ianT_ a better idea of where the xml/xdo stuff is going
jgarnett I would like more developers
dblasby I'd like to see more blogging from everyone so I can get a sense of what people are thinking. (and a good place to get ideas and see future collaboration)
cholmes Yeah, we should get the gvsig guys blogging, if possible.
rgould dblasby, do you have your own blog?
jgarnett ianT_ that is a good one ... the answer right now is this. Dzwiers is working on making the XDO project go on his own. Justin is away at the GML dev days learning how the rest of the world does GML (actually taking a workshop). He has looked at XDO-beta
cholmes I keep trying to get them more open. They are great guys, and do some great work, but they stay too much in their world.
jgarnett and at the latest round of JXP technologies.
jgarnett So we can ask for a update on XDO / XML / GML from him in a weeks time ...
dblasby I do, but I havent actually written anything in it. I tried to set one up on codehaus, but couldnt figure out how to get an account set up. I started one on blogger.com or something...
cholmes I'm optimistic about the latest round of exchanges though...
ianT_ I'm in the process of trying to teach a student/program myself a master map datastore
jgarnett I concur I would like us to focus on adopting another group of developers, I think that is best done by sharing code with them. Or even a jar.
jgarnett It would really help if we had something fun both groups wanted to work on together.
jgarnett I enjoy Filter right now, but I doubt I can interest many of the rest of you (until you see the cool stuff I am doing)
jgarnett IanT_ I do wish I had a corrected DataStore tutorial up their.
jgarnett A lot of us are going to cry when FeatureResults is actually removed and we can no longer find our FeatureReaders ...
dblasby d'oh - thats not going to be nice. Isnt lite and geoserver based on being able to do that?
jgarnett Well there is this thing called a FeatureIterator .. it is even not depricated.
jgarnett A couple of search and replaces (and a lot of changed exception handling) should do it ...
jgarnett But I need the tutorials upgraded now, so new users do not make old code.
jgarnett I ran into this during my training course ...
dblasby Anyways - I'd really like to get more involvement with the "C/C++" groups. I'd also like to get people more into using the OGC standards (esp WFS). I think mapserver hasnt done a good job of promoting that with their non-standard interface, non-SLD styling, and mapscripting.
cholmes Yeah, I do like your xslt ideas for that reason, get people coding, but without having to learn java, by just doing xslt plugins.
dblasby As I mentioned this morning, I think one of the reasons for this is because it difficult to deal with GML. I'd like to see something like XDO for "C/C++" people.
dblasby Ie. compiled WFS datastore.
cholmes I think our OWS tutorial may help, have lots of good examples, and say all of this 'should' work on mapserver as well.
jgarnett It is still just mostly smoke until MapServer is a WFS-T
jgarnett well in terms of use for a OSI, it is good for the web mash-ups
dblasby I think so to. I also think that once people start using the GeoCollaborator services, they'll find it dead easy to plug in a WFS and start really using it. EVERYONE DIRECTLY ACCESSES THEIR DATA (at least in the mapserver/non-java world)
ianT_ GeoCollaborator?
dblasby Read the first message on Feature Versioning. (damn - I really wish I had titled that message "extending ogc web service")
cholmes Yeah, I think we just need to go on a big promotional tour, with lots of good docs, show that there is another way than directly accessing data.
jgarnett Dblasby - repost it with that title in your blog
jgarnett You have a blog don
jgarnett 't you ...
dblasby yeshttp://spatial-ramblings.blogspot.com/
dblasby but there's nothing there yet. Hopefully I'll get some time after the 1.3.0RC2 on wed/thursday.
dblasby I have about a million things to talk about...
dblasby (There's been lots of good discussion thats come up from that topic (and the Ingestion Engine topic too), though.)
simboss GC berakout meeting time ?
dblasby poor simboss
simboss :-;
simboss
jgarnett Can you please link to your blog from http://docs.codehaus.org/display/~dblasby
jmacgill simbos, you know martins availability... just make a suggestion...
simboss there is not much to suggest
jgarnett dblasby your blog link did not work.
simboss either I find a way to use IRC a twork ( which I trongly doubt)
jgarnett well does any time work for both you and him? You are on opposite sides of the world.
dblasby jgarnet - there is nothing there yet. Thats probably why its not working.
rgould Conference call maybe?
simboss he is available between 2400 and 1200 on my timezone
simboss but at work
simboss we have a firewall so tight
simboss that we cannot even use cvs
jgarnett so is that from midnight to morning? Why net set the meeting before you go to work ?
simboss strangely enough MSN messenger works
dblasby ...thats why god invented the SSH stunnel!
jgarnett I don't want to think what that is in my timezone ..
rgould What about a java applet IRC client?
simboss I have to ask firewall guys
simboss otherwise we will have to do that
jgarnett Can you guys hook simboss up with the know how? Both of those things should go through port 80, firewall guys may not even notice...
jgarnett Ack - my mad metadata plan made it on to the http://java.net/ front page...
rgould Are you able to do the meeting at midnight? What time is it there now?
simboss 2300
simboss I can handle that at midnight
simboss it is the easier thing to do
rgould Maybe do it right at 2400 then. It would be okay for most in America
simboss Alessio do you agree?
AlFa I agree
simboss well
simboss ok than
rgould Just have to pick a day then?
simboss yeah
simboss I was checking a previous email that went around about this
ianT_ worryingly gt2wms also made the front page of java.net
ianT_ I thought we killed that years ago James
rgould What is gt2wms?
simboss jody suggested this http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=7&day=20&year=2005&hour=22
simboss wednesday 2200 UTC
simboss which is 2400 for me
jmacgill It is from the days before GeoServer had WMS support
jmacgill it was a WMS built on GeoTools
simboss which if I am right means the night between wed and thu ( I am so bad at these things...)
cholmes it's where the wms support in geoserver came from.
simboss is that ok then?
jmacgill some of the code formed the base for the WMS code in geoserver
jmacgill but it should be dead now
rgould Wow - how did that make the front page?
jmacgill no idea
jmacgill It is in freshmeat but nothing has happend with it for years
ianT_ I know I still use the code on production sites
jmacgill I have to head home guys
rgould ciao james
dblasby bye james
CIA-10 wayward * r14823 udig/plugins/mil.army.cecer.site.catalog.dxf/src/mil/army/cecer/site/catalog/dxf/DxfFeatureReader.java: Fixed bug related to FeatureIterator call
cholmes looks like udig community plugins are going these days?
jgarnett James what is GT2WMS and why are they inbed with Web Services and XML Community?
jgarnett yep
jgarnett Quick everyone comment on that java.net post and link to geoserver?
ianT_ I refere you to James' earlier reply <jmacgill> it was a WMS built on GeoTools
jgarnett and james is the maintainer , very funny. Thanks ianT_
jgarnett Darn can't figure out how to commnet?
jgarnett anyone who is Okay I think we are knd of done ... simboss you wanna send post that Breakout IRC as a news post pls?
jgarnett I can gather the logs
I recently had the privalage of teaching a training course to Centro Internacional De la Papa (part of CGIAR.
One of the things we covered was the Java Open Source GIS community. I thought I would share this presentation with everyone:
- Community.ppt PowerPoint
- Community.pdf Acrobat
Agenda: 1) 2.1.0 status and timing 2) hsql plugin 3) where 2.0 4) xdo 5) range vs JAI
dadler How do I register so that I can also connect to the udig irc channel?
aalam you do not need to register.
aalam i see you're already on the udig channel
dadler When I connected it gave me the message:
dadler This channel requires that you have registered and identified yourself with the network's nickname
registration services (e.g. NickServ). Please see the documentation of this network's nickname registration services
that should be found in the MOTD
aalam oh that...yeah, i've just ignored that 
jgarnett hi rgould_
jgarnett feeling okay?
rgould_ meh
rgould_ figured i could at least make the meeting
jgarnett Hi James
jgarnett meeting starting, we got a number of people.
jmacgill Hi all
jgarnett Shall we call for an agenda: It seems we have not had one for a while
jgarnett Agenda:
jgarnett #1 2.1.0 Status and final checklist
aalam #2 hsql datastore module
jgarnett James did you want to say a few words about where 2.0?
jgarnett #3 Where 2.0 conference
jmacgill Sure will do
jgarnett Is there anything else people want to talk about?
jmacgill guess not, lets start from #1
jmacgill Jody, whats the oustanding bug list looking like for 2.1 ?
ianT_ xdo status?
jgarnett Righ #1 GT 2.1.0 status
jmacgill ok, #4 0 xdo
jgarnett well we have one gotcha (there is no way to make a Fature with out a deprication warning)
jgarnett and we have the migrate module
jgarnett And to update the docs.
jgarnett I can handle the first thing. I am also prepaird to say migrate has had its time, what is still
in there that people like?
jmacgill for now I think we have to undepricate FeatureType.create as there is no replacment in the
existing RC
jmacgill Martin has pulled more stuff out of migrate in teh last few days
jgarnett I understand, and can do that james. It is just that we don't have a good plan going forward.
jgarnett Okay, we can ask him when he wants to make the jump.
jgarnett What I would like to do is put out a 2.1.SC1 release out at the end of the week (with these two
issue resolved).
jmacgill he may have a swing-widgets module that he would like back porting to 2.1 (probably minimal
effort)
cholmes Hi all, sorry I'm late, got the times mixed up.
jgarnett The easiest way to clean up the documentation is to group it, group the existing documentation
up as 2.0 docs.
jgarnett And people can port, upgrade docs as time goes on.
jgarnett SC = sanity check
cholmes meaning it'll be 2.1.0 after?
jgarnett It will be 2.1.0 the moment people stop complaining about it.
jgarnett What I really need here is dblasby, cause I would like this to be what he uses for geoserver
1.3.0
cholmes cool.
ianT_ dave is about
jmacgill lets all ping him
cholmes Er, I think we're still a bit away from geoserver 1.3.0, though ideally few of the changes should be
gt2 ones...
cholmes we still have a number of things we want to clean up though, and full docs, and in that time frame I
imagine we'll get some bug reports...
jgarnett well I would be okay with letting 2.1.0 slide until such time as GeoServer 1.3.0 is released.
Indeed I would prefer it.
dblasby hi
dblasby sorry I'm late
jgarnett Hi dave 2.1.0 release timeframe, I would like it to be released with geosever 1.3.0
cholmes Hey, we were just talking about timing for gt2.1 and geoserver 1.3.0
dblasby I just sent out a message about JAI
jgarnett we have two issues left (Feature creation, and migrate).
dblasby 1.3.0 will be a while - I'm hoping sept.
jgarnett Yeah - and the JAI Range? I would like ISO 19119 based interfaces - but that woudl be a GT 2.2?
dblasby I'd like to add the "JAI - die die die" eature
jgarnett why so long? what you have is much better then 1.2
dblasby most of the code just wants to have a min/max number - ie a 5 line class.
jgarnett release early release often, and if there is one thing we learned in OSG'05 it is that a point
oh release is worth more downloads and testing then anything else.
dblasby lots to do and document. Looks at the bug list of 1.3.0 – there's about 30 issues being tracked - some
of them are difficult.
cholmes You know, I think geoserver users are actually a lot better at downloading the rcs and beta releases...
cholmes most people are hitting them now.
dblasby I am releasing offten - there's one comming out about every 3 weeks.
cholmes We'll release early and often up to the date.
dblasby I get a slew of bug reports with each release.
cholmes of 1.3.0
cholmes we just want it super tight, and right now there are a lot of little issues to tie down.
jgarnett that is true, okay lets release GT 2.1.0 sooner and we can release a GT 2.1.1 when GeoServer
1.3.0 goes out.
dblasby no point in throwing known crap out.
cholmes and we're going to spending a bunch of time on docs.
cholmes Yeah, that's what I'd say
cholmes 2.1.0 sooner, get it with the next rc for geoserver
cholmes or 2 rcs, depending on when Dave's planning the next.
jgarnett Okay that works for me.
jgarnett Shall we move to the next agenda item then?
dblasby Geoserver is uptodate with 2.1.x as of yesterday, I think. I had to do some changes due to the geotools
API changes...
jmacgill the first 'dot' release is probably a good idea for a stable product relaease like geosever
1.3.0
dblasby jgarnett - please add "range" to the agenda
rgould_ sorry guys - going to go lie down again
jgarnett #5 add range to the agenda
jgarnett Okay moving on
jgarnett #2 hsql datastore
aalam #2 hsql datastore
jgarnett First of all does everyone know aalam?
Polio nope (well, unless he's the goofy guy that used to work downstairs from me)
Polio
dblasby I sent you some notes on HSQL datastore – I'd highly recommend looking at derby since its 1000* better
than hsql.
aalam but that geometry restriction is not good
dblasby The only problem is that you might not be able to put large geometries in it – you should ask the
derby mailing list. they said "it would be easy to change".
dblasby putting a lot of time in HSQL is probably not a wise idea.
aalam well, it's pretty much done...
aalam just doing the test cases right now
dblasby (I could be wrong, but the DB has a lot of issues)
aalam oh i see
aalam i guess i'll find those out as the test cases come along
jgarnett okay lets try this again - aalam is Amr
jmacgill so we will shortly have an embedable datastore?
aalam alright, so i'll have to see which one works well...might eventually switch to derby
dblasby make sure you try it on a BIG dataset - you'll probably run out of memory.
dblasby and watch out for concurrency
jgarnett and he has made a hsql datastore and it would be nice if he put that in version control
dblasby and ACID
jgarnett Amr do you have geotools commit previllages?
aalam no, that's what i need
Polio later gents, have to run
cholmes Isn't there already a plugin for it?
cholmes see you Polio
aalam i will look into that stuff dave.
aalam there's a plugin for espg-hsql
cholmes ah
jgarnett I started one chris - but they changed it to be an epsg database and moved it :-O
dblasby jody made a hsql datastore plugin a long time ago
jmacgill was that a datastore or was it epsg specific?
cholmes is there any synergy between the two?
cholmes Like should they/are they going to live in the same place? Or one depend on the other? Or no?
jmacgill probaly deps on drivers / jars...
aalam well, they would depend on the same jars
cholmes Yeah, so I suppose make sure you guys are in sync with the jars you're using, so we're not sticking two
versions in our binary releases for no good reason.
aalam although, the espg-hsl is depending on a fairly old hsql jar...so i'd like to use a newer jar
aalam yeah...that's a problem right now
cholmes Ok, well check with the module maintainer for it, or better yet try it out with a new jar for them and
submit the changes...
jmacgill ok, so, a new module, and enough commit rights for that module and the ablitlty to update the
epsg plugin
aalam will do.
cholmes Has anyone done a code review?
jgarnett Well he works on udig, may not be the strongest recomendation (after looking at a few class
headers last week)
jmacgill no, but stand-alone modules have a lower(non-existent?) threashold for commit rights
jgarnett I think we could review his code before it is included in the nightly builds? Make sure Jalopy,
coverage etc... are met.
cholmes Well, at the very least we should do, yeah, exactly what jody said
cholmes Just use of jalopy, good comments, proper headers and indents, sane variable names, ect.
jgarnett So +1 from me
jmacgill +1 from mee too
cholmes +0 (as I don't know his work at all, can easily be swayed by a bit of source code. Also committers can
and should vote on this, we just need 3 +1s from committers)
dblasby datastore committing isnt "risky" — +1
cholmes that does it.
aalam alright, great!
cholmes welcome! I suppose you guys can sort out getting Paul to add the appropriate rights.
jgarnett yep
jgarnett What is topic #3 - and welcome Amr
jgarnett #3 Where 2.0
jgarnett James and I attended the Where 2.0 conference late last month, in an effort to
jgarnett a) see what is up
jgarnett b) try and see what developers we could play with
dblasby ...what was the result...
jgarnett I got some blog posts on the topic
jgarnett I have update the new item here:
jgarnett http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/2005/06/26/Geotools+at+Where+2.0
jgarnett with links to the posts.
jgarnett In short - it was pretty amazing. Coudl not be more different from the osg'05 conference.
jgarnett Any thoughts James?
jgarnett James did get to thank the DB2 guys for their support (got a ncie round of applause) - thanks
dadler
dadler And thank you!
jgarnett The location based people are really focused on address.
jmacgill and address in the US at that
jgarnett In short nothing else matters to them this year, the fact that there was not open standard for
address amazed and confused them.
jgarnett To wit - we called off our Java BOF and just did it on open standards.
jgarnett Even then people did not get that there was an open standarded until I dragged a link to a
Capabilities docuemnt into udig.
jgarnett I have been a way, did you guys get to talk about the OSG'2005 conference?
cholmes No, I think July was the gt2 month off...
jgarnett James did an nice geotools presentation -
http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOTOOLS/2005/06/26/EoGeo+Geotools+presentation
cholmes I mean June/July
jgarnett which was well recieved.
jgarnett The interesting part of that confernece was having a face to face geotools meeting
jgarnett (and dragging in an OGC expert for questions and abuse).
dblasby http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOS/OSGIS+2005+presentation
dblasby my presentation on building web apps with WFS and WMS
jgarnett Cool - thanks for the link.
jgarnett Dave also did a well recived talk, although he left the exciting stuff till the end
cholmes In response to the fact that the next os geo type meeting seems to exclude java geo (by calling it
mapserver/grass/eogeo), David and I are having a geoserver conference. Probably on a beach in south east asia.
Everyone's invited. If you want we can make some formal website so you people can try to expense it. But it'll be
mostly us hanging out on the beach 
jgarnett Nice
jgarnett seriously guys james already talked to them, we should get this fixed.
dblasby yes - I really do feel that the java OS GIS community is estranged from the C/C++ one. Its on my plan
to try to fix this!
jgarnett James? How should we kick up a fuss on this one?
jmacgill I already have
jmacgill I'll follow up if no changes occure
jgarnett On a related note James and myself have stated blogging abit, to try and communitcate all the
cool stuff everyone has been doing.
jgarnett The big message out of the OSG'05 conference was that we should work together more.
jgarnett dblasby - fixed your page to contain a link to that attachement.
jmacgill bridging to GDAL would help a lot
jgarnett yes it would, it was interesting how we seem to out number the other open source java
communities.
dblasby thanks - I didnt know how to do that
jgarnett I always thought there would be more around for some reason.
ianT_ I was thinking about gdal bridges while reading web mapping illustrated last week
dblasby I'd really like to see some GDAL bridges; but watch out - it might not be thread safe.
jgarnett (note: We lost Polio for topic #4 xdo)
ianT_ nice book btw mentions for geoserver and udig in passing
jgarnett really? cool ...
cholmes Has anyone got mapping hacks? I got two chapters in there... But haven't read them yet as they sent it
to my parents house
jgarnett we saw them
ianT_ I just wanted to know what XDO-beta is, does it superseed xml stuff
cholmes and sending 3lbs to africa ain't cheap
jgarnett and showed them to people at the where 2.0 conference.
ianT_ I'm waiting for O'reily to mail it to me
jgarnett Incidently I had people install GeoServer in my training course last week - it was a big hit.
And installing JAI did not slow them down much.
jgarnett Actually since we are talking community - one of the things that came up was that people wanted
to meet us
jgarnett (aka the community)
simboss just a small note, I spoke with Frank warmerdam (by email) about GDAL+JNI=GDAL with Java and he was
pretty interested....
jgarnett I prepaired a ppt of everyone, with a few funny pictures, that I would like everyone to have
access to.
simboss but I do not think it is going to be easy to achieve....
ianT_ I was going to use it as an excuse to play with SWIG
dblasby yes - frank mentioned that this was one of the things he wanted to do
dblasby all this talk about JAI leads nicely to the next topic
ianT_ hey what about topic 4?
jmacgill XDO you mean?
jgarnett we lost Polio - I think we were too slow.
jgarnett Near as I can tell from email he is looking into appling the wfs patch.
jgarnett (actually that patch needs to be in before we do 2.1.0)
ianT_ that wasn't the question
jgarnett I know #4 xdo status
ianT_ I just wanted to know what XDO-beta is, does it superseed xml stuff
jgarnett it represents the spinning off of the xml framework as a separate project
jgarnett it now has a jar/src we can depend on.
ianT_ and why is it in our repository as well as the xml package
jgarnett Because we tried to switch to it, but it was not ready yet.
ianT_ does it differ from the XDO-alpha on sf.net
jgarnett We should try again at some point.
jgarnett Yes the XDO-beta is earlier, and we can remove it if you want. As far as I know we are not
using XDO at all right now.
jgarnett There is an XDO branch that saved our last attempt at making the switch.
ianT_ ok - it fooled one of my students is all
jgarnett fair enough.
dblasby are the WFS datastore/etc using pre-XDO code?
jgarnett yes
dblasby ok
jgarnett That seems to be it for geotools
jgarnett I have a geoserver question
dblasby hay - missing#5
dblasby "Range"
jgarnett what is going on with getLegendGraphics? If I ask for 16x16 don't I get 16x16
jgarnett right range.
jgarnett Please see geoapi paramter
jgarnett I will find the link
dblasby yes - but thats not where its being used.
jgarnett I know that
jgarnett there are three things:
jgarnett 1) BeanInfo ParameterDescriptors
jgarnett 2) DataStoreFactory.PARAM
dblasby it seems that its just being used by people who want to store min/max
jgarnett 3) JAI Parameters (including Range)
jgarnett and
jgarnett 0) geoapi ParameterDescriptor/ParameterValue
jgarnett (so 4 things)
dblasby it seems silly to force people to download JAI just so they can have a
clas.
jmacgill ah, so we would get runtime failures due to a geoapi dependancy
jgarnett http://geoapi.sourceforge.net/snapshot/javadoc/org/opengis/parameter/ParameterDescriptor.html
jgarnett Note: getMaximumValue, getMinimumValue
jgarnett also does enums
jgarnett getValidValues
<-- dadler has left freenode (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
cr*p
jmacgill vecmath is open source
jgarnett it was part of java 3d
jgarnett https://media.dev.java.net/
jgarnett imageio, jai and java4d are all there
jgarnett and vecmath is part of the java3d section (4d above was a typo)
cholmes Isn't it here: https://jai.dev.java.net/ ?
cholmes top hit for 'jai java'
jmacgill https://jai.dev.java.net/ - yep chris
jgarnett yes it is - I was pointing to all the java media frameworks
dblasby The source code for the jai-core project is licensed under the Java Research License (JRL) for
non-commercial use. The JRL allows users to download, build, and modify the source code in the jai-core project for
research use, subject to the terms of the license.
jmacgill The source for the jai-core project is also licensed for commercial use under a new no-fee Java
Distribution License (JDL). The JDL allows commercial use of Java Advanced Imaging with or without modification, as
long as compatibility with the entire API Specification is maintained. This includes passing the TCK tests for Java
Advanced Imaging, and retaining the javax namespace as defined by the JCP.
dblasby The source for the jai-core project is also licensed for commercial use under a new no-fee Java
Distribution License (JDL). The JDL allows commercial use of Java Advanced Imaging with or without modification, as
long as compatibility with the entire API Specification is maintained. This includes passing the TCK tests for Java
Advanced Imaging, and retaining the javax namespace as defined by...
dblasby ...the JCP.
jmacgill so, unmodified, we can redistibute at will
jmacgill so we can bundle the java pure version and all our troubles go away
jmacgill the nice thing is that the ext folder has precidence so if it is installed the accelerated
version will be used
jmacgill (above statment may not be true for evil eclipse fudges)
jgarnett guys there is a problem
jgarnett aka
jgarnett boot classpath
jgarnett jai needs to be placed in the bootclasspath for it to work - doesn't it?
jmacgill nope
jmacgill for it to be accelerated, yes
jgarnett okay
jgarnett So dave this is not the answer you where hoping for
dblasby so, if I just put the jai.jar in the geoserver lib/ I'm golden and will not be sued?
jgarnett ie) the only thing I need from jai is range, so lets remove that
jgarnett and you got another 5megs added to your download instead.
dblasby I dont think you're allowed to re-distribute just a single classs...
jmacgill your not
jmacgill I thought geoapi needed more than Range
jmacgill is jai-core that large?
dblasby I havent found where to download it...
jmacgill you have to check out and build your own
jmacgill jai core is apprx 1.5Mb (for accelerated version)
dblasby ya - martin seemed to indicate the .jar was about a meg
jgarnett dblasby - it seems that my request for a 16x16 legend graphic is not going to be honoured
against the spec? How terrible ...
dblasby yes - the spec is loose on prescription for size.
dblasby but its a MAJOR AI problem to make a "nice" legend at a random size!
dblasby the only way around it is to have hand-made pre-generated ones of differnt sizes mentioned in the
capabilities doc
dblasby (you can also give a "scale" hint to the GetLegendGraphic call so you get the "correct" legend for the
current zoom scale)
cholmes I think we should do a press release for James's GeoServer producing KML:
http://www.directionsmag.com/blog/archives/374-CubeWerx-Turns-Google-into-WMS.html
cholmes And we should do the exact same thing cubewerx does as well...
jgarnett lots of thoughts
dblasby so - are we saying that I have to include the JAI-core.jar in geoserver?
jgarnett No - just that it is available to you. Lets ask another question, should we palce jai and
imageio into our maven repo?
jgarnett and just have the JAI installation instructions for people wanting more speed?
dblasby thats pretty much what I think needs to happen. Ideally I'd like to see JAI removed from the
non-necessary parts of geotools.
jmacgill because we use geoapi we need to know the imact on it as well
jmacgill for now though given the new licence
jmacgill I'm happy to see jai core in our own repositories
dblasby okay - so who's going to download and build JAI and make the .jars?
dblasby where do you download them - I found the CVS, but there's no pre-made jars.
jgarnett I was going to take the ones we already use?
jgarnett but you are correct we may need to build them?
dblasby you mean steal it out of the JAI installer? I'm not sure if the licence deals with that...
jmacgill it dosn't
jmacgill we need to build them
jmacgill I have no logs - stupid command line client again
jgarnett well we did it for vecmath
dblasby I came late - i dont have the entire log
CIA-10 jmacgill 2.1.x * r14770 geotools/plugin/gml/ (10 files in 8 dirs):
CIA-10 added unit tests (still under development)
CIA-10 supports 'url' as true URL and as a String (untested)
dblasby Okay, I'll see what I can do about downloading and building JAI jars.
dblasby jgarnett can help me upload them to the maven repository.
jmacgill not me, I have to head home like about now.
jgarnett You can just download and post them - no need to build.
jgarnett thanks james.
jgarnett I should head for lunch - can I ask someone to post the logs today?
dblasby where do you download them - I found the CVS, but there's no pre-made jars.